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welcome to tales from the rabbit hole

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i'm your host mick west my guests today

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are professor mia bloom and dr sophia

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moscalenko

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the authors of the book pastels and

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pedophiles

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which is a book about the q and on

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conspiracy theory how it came about

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and what we can do about it so i'd like

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to thank uh both of you

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very much for joining me here today

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thank you so much for having us

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it's a pleasure i found the book really

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interesting uh

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partly because it kind of overlapped a

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lot with with my kind of area of

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interest

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i i noticed that the book was it was

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only published uh back in june yeah a

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couple of months ago

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but i imagine you started working on it

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in the previous year would that be

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correct

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yeah what had happened was um the

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national science foundation

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and the pentagon had asked me to

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present about q anon because general

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michael flynn had

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pledged allegiance and there was a

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concern

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that many people in the military or

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people among veterans

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might follow suit and so they were

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looking at it from a security

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perspective

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and that you know when we then had on

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the 25th of january

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christmas day morning um the explosion

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in nashville

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initially people thought that was q anon

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related that's

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they called us back and they said okay

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we're going to give you research funding

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to do this for the next few years

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because we perceive this as a potential

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threat

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to national security so sophie and i

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have been working on it

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for quite a while but um the book came

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out june 15th

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prior to say you know january the 6th

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this year

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was the focus like uh a different focus

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or was it essentially the same or was it

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kind of

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approach was after january the 6th

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well so there was a there was a hybrid

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because at some point the reason why

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the um the head of the fbi christopher

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wray

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had designated q anon first in 2019

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and then again in 2020 as a potential

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terrorist threat

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was because there was a threat to the

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hoover dam so there weren't

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many crimes associated with q anon in

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that first period

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2018 to 2020 but because one was a

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threat

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against infrastructure it qualified as

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having potential

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for terrorism and that's where you know

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sophie and i have been working on

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terrorism

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for 25 and 30 years uh

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respectively so this is where there's

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the possibility

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but also when we went into it we were

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looking at well what are the

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similarities but where are the

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differences

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and sophia was able to glean some really

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important differences between

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what we're used to seeing from terrorist

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organizations

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and terrorist operatives versus q anon

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sophia i i find uh when i try to explain

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q anon to people it's

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it's a very uh difficult thing to get

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across if

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people were to ask you what's your sir

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say you know 30 second to one minute

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explanation from your perspective uh

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your expert perspective of what

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humanon is so um as nia said we

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came into this line of of research

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uh thinking of q anon as a terrorist

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group a radical group

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but the more i learned about it the more

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data we got

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the more differences we saw between a

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traditional terrorist group like a

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jihadist group or right-wing

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you know militia group or environmental

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uh terrorist groups and so

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our view that we expressed in the book

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is that q anon

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is not uh like a terrorist group

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it's not fair or legitimate to compare

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it with isis for example

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um there's several fundamental

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differences about it

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um that mean we have to treat it

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differently from the point of view of

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policing it and also from the point of

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view of

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how to approach direct

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our efforts toward people in our

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community our friends and neighbors who

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may be susceptible or

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already inside this rabbit hole so some

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of the differences that mark you in on

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from

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terrorist groups are first just its

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sheer size

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so with terrorist groups we look at

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small face-to-face groups

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um maybe there's a larger group of

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supporters who

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donate money provide logistical support

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but still we're looking at you know a

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couple of hundred people

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maybe a thousand if you're you're

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talking about al qaeda at its height

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right

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with queuing on every poll we're seeing

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that's representative of the population

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of americans for example

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is putting the number of people

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entrenched in carrying on beliefs

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at tens of millions so around 30 million

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people if you project

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the poll results are convinced that a

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cabal of blood-drinking

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sadistic pedophiles have taken over

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our government media and a bunch of

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other

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things like you know lizard people and

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flat earth and space lasers and all this

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colorful

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um set of of characters and narratives

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um that's one big difference

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another really big difference is that

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queuing on

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is more about ideas ideology if you want

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to

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you know call it that then it is about

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action so

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how many q anon people were ever

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involved in

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a an ideologically motivated crime i

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just gave you the number of about 30

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million people how many

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out of these were ever implicated in

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radical act

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actions the answer is about

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70 and that includes all the qn

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followers who were indicted for their

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participation in the january sixth

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inspection

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so the proportion of people who are

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actually dangerous as far as their

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actions are concerned who

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may carry out a terrorist act is

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minuscule compared to a traditional

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terrorist group

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and the last major difference is that we

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discovered and our colleagues have since

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substantiated our

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observations in in case studies we did

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for the book

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that an overwhelming proportion of q are

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followers suffer from

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mental health problems and diagnose

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psychopathology we're talking about

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um three and a half times the rate

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of these problems that are encountered

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in an

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average american adult population so

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these three major differences mean that

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human is something qualitatively

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different so we can't really use

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the tools in our toolbox that we

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developed for dealing with

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al qaeda and domestic extremists

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to deal with q anon we have to address

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the fact that it's an internet based

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group as opposed to face-to-face

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we have to address the mental health

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angle we have to approach it

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more from the community health

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standpoint

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just because there's so many of people

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in our lives you know who believe these

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things we can't put them all in prison

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we can't put them into a

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de-radicalization camp so we have to do

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something different here

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i'm going to jump in and add one thing

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you know this issue about mental health

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is really important

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for the most part all the terrorist

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organizations that

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we've studied uh collectively

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individually

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they tend not to recruit people who are

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mentally ill

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the first reason is someone who has

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mental illness

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is not good with operational secrecy the

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second reason

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someone who's mentally ill tends not to

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finish the task

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now the only time we ever saw people

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deliberately targeted

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for recruitment who were mentally ill

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the provisional ira

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used to have a squad that would do the

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kneecapping

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and they wanted people who were kind of

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psychopaths for that job

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but generally no the only other place

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we've seen it

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isis did recruit from prisons and they

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didn't you know they weren't really

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selective when they were bringing people

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over so we did see people who were

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exhibiting some signs of psychopathology

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but for the most part

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when you're dealing with mental illness

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terrorist groups don't want the mentally

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ill person

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and and there's good reason for it so is

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it really um

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a unique phenomena is that do is there

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any historical precedent

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for a kind of a you know mass delusion

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slash conspiracy theory slash

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terrorist organization slightly of this

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scale

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or is this something entirely new what's

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really unique about q anon

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is its adaptability it has this almost

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you know like the frog fish

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that it blends in with its environment

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and in many respects

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the reason why q anon has become such i

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mean a phenomenon

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is that no matter where it's going it's

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changing ever so slightly

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so there is the basis of belief about

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you know the

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blood the cabal that's running things

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and they've been in charge forever

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and they're drinking the blood of

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children and trafficking children and

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and raping the children and doing all

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these horrible things and then it starts

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to

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get larger and it's taking on local

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flavor so in france

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it's connected to the yellow jackets in

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britain it's brexit

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in germany it's anti-immigrant and it's

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talking about

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there was a series of um attacks against

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women by muslim

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groups and they were sexually harassed

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at uh whether it was new year's eve or

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some other holidays

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so they're they're connecting with a

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fertile environment

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about something else and and the example

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we use in the book

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is that it's like the sticky ball

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rolling down the hill and it's picking

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up things along the way

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and it's getting ever ever larger but

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it's never quite the same

290
00:09:49,750 --> 00:09:48,000
depending on who believes it and in part

291
00:09:51,030 --> 00:09:49,760
and i'm so sad that i read your book

292
00:09:52,949 --> 00:09:51,040
after we wrote the book

293
00:09:54,230 --> 00:09:52,959
because you hit the nail on the head

294
00:09:55,750 --> 00:09:54,240
when you talk about

295
00:09:57,910 --> 00:09:55,760
you know people get to the point at

296
00:10:00,790 --> 00:09:57,920
which oh no no that's too crazy for me

297
00:10:02,630 --> 00:10:00,800
lizard people no that's my line and so

298
00:10:04,710 --> 00:10:02,640
what we were seeing is

299
00:10:06,870 --> 00:10:04,720
not everyone who's in q anon believes

300
00:10:09,350 --> 00:10:06,880
all of it they may believe portions

301
00:10:11,110 --> 00:10:09,360
but the portion they believe is about

302
00:10:14,630 --> 00:10:11,120
the blood drinking cabal

303
00:10:16,470 --> 00:10:14,640
that are you know exploiting children

304
00:10:18,389 --> 00:10:16,480
yeah which is pretty extreme in itself i

305
00:10:19,190 --> 00:10:18,399
would say uh and most people i think

306
00:10:21,110 --> 00:10:19,200
would say that

307
00:10:23,269 --> 00:10:21,120
it's it's obviously been a big part of

308
00:10:23,670 --> 00:10:23,279
the news over the last uh last year or

309
00:10:25,750 --> 00:10:23,680
so

310
00:10:27,430 --> 00:10:25,760
and you know one thing that i think

311
00:10:28,470 --> 00:10:27,440
shifted for me in my understanding of q

312
00:10:30,069 --> 00:10:28,480
anon was

313
00:10:32,069 --> 00:10:30,079
i i originally just thought it was just

314
00:10:35,350 --> 00:10:32,079
one another silly conspiracy theory

315
00:10:35,910 --> 00:10:35,360
but of course it's it seems to go a lot

316
00:10:38,630 --> 00:10:35,920
further

317
00:10:39,509 --> 00:10:38,640
than everything else to what extent do

318
00:10:43,829 --> 00:10:39,519
you feel

319
00:10:46,150 --> 00:10:43,839
that q anon is an emergent

320
00:10:47,190 --> 00:10:46,160
uh phenomenon versus something that is

321
00:10:50,310 --> 00:10:47,200
being directed

322
00:10:53,350 --> 00:10:50,320
or manipulated or at least enhanced

323
00:10:54,949 --> 00:10:53,360
uh by external forces like

324
00:10:57,030 --> 00:10:54,959
other countries and people within this

325
00:10:59,509 --> 00:10:57,040
country i'm gonna

326
00:11:00,389 --> 00:10:59,519
just very quickly say that we know at

327
00:11:03,990 --> 00:11:00,399
the outset

328
00:11:05,910 --> 00:11:04,000
in october 2017 russian like the

329
00:11:07,269 --> 00:11:05,920
internet research agency that was so

330
00:11:09,670 --> 00:11:07,279
involved in 2016

331
00:11:12,069 --> 00:11:09,680
helped amplify q anon we are we were

332
00:11:13,910 --> 00:11:12,079
also seeing the role of china and other

333
00:11:15,590 --> 00:11:13,920
malign foreign actors that have been

334
00:11:17,990 --> 00:11:15,600
involved in disinformation

335
00:11:18,630 --> 00:11:18,000
so we've seen that the role they play

336
00:11:21,430 --> 00:11:18,640
has been

337
00:11:22,550 --> 00:11:21,440
ultimately to weaken american

338
00:11:24,550 --> 00:11:22,560
institutions

339
00:11:26,470 --> 00:11:24,560
and our democracy our faith in

340
00:11:29,670 --> 00:11:26,480
government faith in elections

341
00:11:31,590 --> 00:11:29,680
and also the mainstream media but sophia

342
00:11:33,269 --> 00:11:31,600
i think you you wanted to follow up with

343
00:11:36,790 --> 00:11:33,279
that

344
00:11:40,470 --> 00:11:36,800
yeah we think it's a synergy between

345
00:11:43,590 --> 00:11:40,480
these grassroots movements that um

346
00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:43,600
offer a way to channel uh collective

347
00:11:47,110 --> 00:11:46,240
rage and and collective grievances

348
00:11:48,710 --> 00:11:47,120
through these

349
00:11:50,949 --> 00:11:48,720
narratives that they built together

350
00:11:54,310 --> 00:11:50,959
online in puzzle-like

351
00:11:55,990 --> 00:11:54,320
sequences of interactions um

352
00:11:57,910 --> 00:11:56,000
which makes it very attractive for a lot

353
00:11:59,910 --> 00:11:57,920
of people because you know we're living

354
00:12:01,509 --> 00:11:59,920
in times of unprecedented changes and

355
00:12:03,430 --> 00:12:01,519
colgate was a major

356
00:12:05,590 --> 00:12:03,440
unprecedented change and and now

357
00:12:07,350 --> 00:12:05,600
vaccines are offering a new fertile

358
00:12:10,550 --> 00:12:07,360
ground for

359
00:12:12,949 --> 00:12:10,560
exploring one's creativity right um so

360
00:12:16,069 --> 00:12:12,959
on the one side you have this

361
00:12:17,030 --> 00:12:16,079
um role that q anon plays um for a lot

362
00:12:20,629 --> 00:12:17,040
of people

363
00:12:24,150 --> 00:12:20,639
of of being a an easily reached

364
00:12:24,470 --> 00:12:24,160
connection to other people to um to

365
00:12:27,990 --> 00:12:24,480
share

366
00:12:31,670 --> 00:12:28,000
emotions to air grievances to

367
00:12:32,310 --> 00:12:31,680
kind of basically synchronize a lot of

368
00:12:35,269 --> 00:12:32,320
their

369
00:12:35,750 --> 00:12:35,279
um attitudes and ideas and on the other

370
00:12:37,750 --> 00:12:35,760
hand

371
00:12:39,829 --> 00:12:37,760
you have very savvy political operatives

372
00:12:42,069 --> 00:12:39,839
who are capitalizing

373
00:12:44,069 --> 00:12:42,079
on how easy it is to reach these same

374
00:12:45,190 --> 00:12:44,079
people because you know q and on and all

375
00:12:48,069 --> 00:12:45,200
these ideas are

376
00:12:49,590 --> 00:12:48,079
at our fingertips 24 hours a day right

377
00:12:52,389 --> 00:12:49,600
through our screens

378
00:12:53,430 --> 00:12:52,399
and they're either explaining it for

379
00:12:56,870 --> 00:12:53,440
material gains

380
00:12:59,509 --> 00:12:56,880
through merchandising and fundraising

381
00:13:00,310 --> 00:12:59,519
or they're exploiting this grassroots

382
00:13:02,550 --> 00:13:00,320
movement

383
00:13:04,949 --> 00:13:02,560
for political power which we've seen in

384
00:13:07,990 --> 00:13:04,959
in some of american politicians

385
00:13:10,550 --> 00:13:08,000
or as mia mentioned we we see a number

386
00:13:13,670 --> 00:13:10,560
of political players from abroad

387
00:13:17,350 --> 00:13:13,680
use q anon as a lever

388
00:13:18,310 --> 00:13:17,360
to widen the divides in the american

389
00:13:21,350 --> 00:13:18,320
population

390
00:13:24,150 --> 00:13:21,360
and then exploit these fissures these

391
00:13:27,430 --> 00:13:24,160
tectonic plates you know breaking apart

392
00:13:29,509 --> 00:13:27,440
and drifting farther apart yeah

393
00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:29,519
and in some ways the uh you mentioned

394
00:13:33,670 --> 00:13:30,720
the russians and

395
00:13:35,190 --> 00:13:33,680
one of the the you know where the the

396
00:13:37,110 --> 00:13:35,200
fundamental things in conspiracy

397
00:13:39,670 --> 00:13:37,120
theories is this anti-semitic

398
00:13:40,310 --> 00:13:39,680
uh thing and the protocols of the

399
00:13:42,629 --> 00:13:40,320
learned

400
00:13:43,829 --> 00:13:42,639
elders of zion was something i believe

401
00:13:47,350 --> 00:13:43,839
that was created

402
00:13:48,870 --> 00:13:47,360
essentially as russian propaganda uh

403
00:13:51,590 --> 00:13:48,880
not sure exactly how long ago like

404
00:13:55,230 --> 00:13:51,600
around 100 1903

405
00:13:56,949 --> 00:13:55,240
right yeah so over over 100 years ago uh

406
00:13:58,870 --> 00:13:56,959
118.

407
00:14:00,150 --> 00:13:58,880
they were kind of doing the same thing

408
00:14:01,910 --> 00:14:00,160
and and this is

409
00:14:04,389 --> 00:14:01,920
in some ways it's something i think that

410
00:14:05,269 --> 00:14:04,399
that you know it's not unique to russia

411
00:14:07,990 --> 00:14:05,279
obviously like

412
00:14:09,990 --> 00:14:08,000
all countries do some kind of propaganda

413
00:14:13,350 --> 00:14:10,000
uh you know the us obviously has

414
00:14:17,189 --> 00:14:13,360
propaganda outlets and historically has

415
00:14:19,189 --> 00:14:17,199
has had them uh to to other countries

416
00:14:20,710 --> 00:14:19,199
but you know to what extent do you think

417
00:14:23,110 --> 00:14:20,720
this is

418
00:14:24,710 --> 00:14:23,120
like that like what the russians were

419
00:14:25,829 --> 00:14:24,720
trying to do with the protocols of the

420
00:14:29,030 --> 00:14:25,839
elders of zion

421
00:14:30,550 --> 00:14:29,040
you know 118 years ago so one of the

422
00:14:32,389 --> 00:14:30,560
things that we did in the book is

423
00:14:35,350 --> 00:14:32,399
you know you would very often hear that

424
00:14:36,550 --> 00:14:35,360
q anon is based on anti-semitic tropes

425
00:14:37,430 --> 00:14:36,560
and then no one would tell you what the

426
00:14:40,310 --> 00:14:37,440
tropes were

427
00:14:41,670 --> 00:14:40,320
so we actually did a deep dive and we we

428
00:14:43,189 --> 00:14:41,680
presented in the book

429
00:14:44,949 --> 00:14:43,199
sort of where do the protocols of

430
00:14:46,550 --> 00:14:44,959
elder's design come from and if you

431
00:14:47,670 --> 00:14:46,560
think about at the turn of the century

432
00:14:50,230 --> 00:14:47,680
in 1902

433
00:14:51,590 --> 00:14:50,240
and you had the czar in place still he

434
00:14:53,590 --> 00:14:51,600
hadn't been overthrown yet

435
00:14:56,389 --> 00:14:53,600
during the russian revolution but what

436
00:14:59,189 --> 00:14:56,399
did he see he saw throughout europe

437
00:15:00,069 --> 00:14:59,199
these movements for democracy and he saw

438
00:15:02,790 --> 00:15:00,079
you know again

439
00:15:04,150 --> 00:15:02,800
he perceived them as being jewish run

440
00:15:06,949 --> 00:15:04,160
and then at home

441
00:15:07,990 --> 00:15:06,959
marxism he also perceived as being

442
00:15:09,990 --> 00:15:08,000
jewish run

443
00:15:11,509 --> 00:15:10,000
and so when the czar secret police

444
00:15:13,990 --> 00:15:11,519
forged this document

445
00:15:16,550 --> 00:15:14,000
which they cobbled together was also

446
00:15:18,949 --> 00:15:16,560
plagiarized from existing materials

447
00:15:20,470 --> 00:15:18,959
in part it was because the czar was

448
00:15:21,670 --> 00:15:20,480
looking at the jews and the pail of

449
00:15:25,430 --> 00:15:21,680
settlement going

450
00:15:28,870 --> 00:15:25,440
you know these unruly members of of my

451
00:15:30,069 --> 00:15:28,880
kingdom or with zardom are are really

452
00:15:32,310 --> 00:15:30,079
quite troublesome

453
00:15:34,150 --> 00:15:32,320
i need to find a way to get rid of them

454
00:15:36,310 --> 00:15:34,160
and minimize their influence

455
00:15:38,230 --> 00:15:36,320
and if you think about it it would have

456
00:15:39,350 --> 00:15:38,240
ended there because the times of london

457
00:15:41,910 --> 00:15:39,360
right away

458
00:15:43,110 --> 00:15:41,920
recognized it as a forgery but then in

459
00:15:44,949 --> 00:15:43,120
the 1920s

460
00:15:47,509 --> 00:15:44,959
henry ford took over the dearborn

461
00:15:48,710 --> 00:15:47,519
independent and he brought the protocols

462
00:15:51,670 --> 00:15:48,720
of the elders of zion

463
00:15:54,150 --> 00:15:51,680
to america called the international jew

464
00:15:55,430 --> 00:15:54,160
translated it to american english and

465
00:15:58,069 --> 00:15:55,440
gave it new life

466
00:15:59,509 --> 00:15:58,079
and so this is why you have not only the

467
00:16:02,790 --> 00:15:59,519
protocols appearing

468
00:16:05,829 --> 00:16:02,800
in every anti-semitic movement

469
00:16:08,629 --> 00:16:05,839
from 1902 on but it's part of

470
00:16:10,230 --> 00:16:08,639
mein kampf so hitler read it it's been

471
00:16:12,870 --> 00:16:10,240
translated into every

472
00:16:13,269 --> 00:16:12,880
language on the planet and and we we

473
00:16:15,509 --> 00:16:13,279
actually

474
00:16:17,829 --> 00:16:15,519
included this it's a funny story the

475
00:16:18,550 --> 00:16:17,839
saudi you know in the saudi uh royal

476
00:16:21,030 --> 00:16:18,560
family

477
00:16:22,550 --> 00:16:21,040
whenever there's an american visitor

478
00:16:24,790 --> 00:16:22,560
like vip and this would have been

479
00:16:26,389 --> 00:16:24,800
obviously before benzemic uh they would

480
00:16:28,150 --> 00:16:26,399
give them this beautiful

481
00:16:29,829 --> 00:16:28,160
leather embossed version of the

482
00:16:31,990 --> 00:16:29,839
protocols of the elder zion

483
00:16:32,949 --> 00:16:32,000
and you had all these american

484
00:16:34,870 --> 00:16:32,959
congressmen

485
00:16:36,710 --> 00:16:34,880
and senators trying to figure out how to

486
00:16:37,269 --> 00:16:36,720
get rid of it before we got back to the

487
00:16:39,110 --> 00:16:37,279
states

488
00:16:41,670 --> 00:16:39,120
because they did not want it found on

489
00:16:43,910 --> 00:16:41,680
their person so this is where

490
00:16:45,990 --> 00:16:43,920
you know we've been waiting for the

491
00:16:47,990 --> 00:16:46,000
arabic q anon we actually have

492
00:16:49,350 --> 00:16:48,000
a member of our research team who's

493
00:16:51,749 --> 00:16:49,360
fluent in arabic

494
00:16:52,870 --> 00:16:51,759
waiting for it because they already have

495
00:16:55,030 --> 00:16:52,880
the protocols

496
00:16:56,470 --> 00:16:55,040
they already love conspiracies in arabic

497
00:16:59,670 --> 00:16:56,480
they called muammarat

498
00:17:00,870 --> 00:16:59,680
they love conspiracies so that's the one

499
00:17:03,110 --> 00:17:00,880
part of the world

500
00:17:04,150 --> 00:17:03,120
that hasn't had that much q and on just

501
00:17:05,590 --> 00:17:04,160
yet

502
00:17:07,189 --> 00:17:05,600
it was fascinating i didn't didn't

503
00:17:09,429 --> 00:17:07,199
realize that about uh

504
00:17:11,029 --> 00:17:09,439
that part of the world it was uh yeah i

505
00:17:13,350 --> 00:17:11,039
think uh

506
00:17:14,309 --> 00:17:13,360
you know we often think of conspiracy

507
00:17:16,789 --> 00:17:14,319
theories as a

508
00:17:17,990 --> 00:17:16,799
uniquely american thing um we we view

509
00:17:19,510 --> 00:17:18,000
them in an american context

510
00:17:21,429 --> 00:17:19,520
we think of the moon landings being fake

511
00:17:23,590 --> 00:17:21,439
we think of you know 911 being an inside

512
00:17:24,549 --> 00:17:23,600
job we think of jfk being assassinated

513
00:17:26,789 --> 00:17:24,559
but of course

514
00:17:29,029 --> 00:17:26,799
all the other countries they all have uh

515
00:17:31,909 --> 00:17:29,039
conspiracy theories as well

516
00:17:32,630 --> 00:17:31,919
but what it seems to me is that a lot of

517
00:17:36,310 --> 00:17:32,640
them also

518
00:17:38,390 --> 00:17:36,320
import american conspiracy theories

519
00:17:40,310 --> 00:17:38,400
and that seems to be very much happening

520
00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:40,320
with with cue and honor

521
00:17:44,470 --> 00:17:42,640
i was teaching a seminar on conspiracy

522
00:17:46,230 --> 00:17:44,480
theory while we were writing the book

523
00:17:48,230 --> 00:17:46,240
and one of the things that came up and i

524
00:17:50,549 --> 00:17:48,240
think that this is in the literature

525
00:17:51,909 --> 00:17:50,559
it's fairly consistent that almost

526
00:17:53,909 --> 00:17:51,919
everyone believes in at least one

527
00:17:56,549 --> 00:17:53,919
conspiracy theory so for me

528
00:17:57,750 --> 00:17:56,559
i was always curious whether lady diana

529
00:17:59,430 --> 00:17:57,760
spencer

530
00:18:01,430 --> 00:17:59,440
did she die accidentally or was it

531
00:18:04,470 --> 00:18:01,440
because she was dating dodi fayed

532
00:18:05,830 --> 00:18:04,480
and the idea that the stepfather of the

533
00:18:08,310 --> 00:18:05,840
future king would be an

534
00:18:09,029 --> 00:18:08,320
arab was something that didn't sit well

535
00:18:11,270 --> 00:18:09,039
with

536
00:18:13,590 --> 00:18:11,280
members of the royal family right so i

537
00:18:14,150 --> 00:18:13,600
think everyone believes in a conspiracy

538
00:18:16,950 --> 00:18:14,160
theory

539
00:18:18,230 --> 00:18:16,960
but then it just matters to what extent

540
00:18:21,750 --> 00:18:18,240
they're willing to

541
00:18:23,590 --> 00:18:21,760
have the entire world dictate you know

542
00:18:24,870 --> 00:18:23,600
that there's nothing you can trust and

543
00:18:26,710 --> 00:18:24,880
the mainstream media

544
00:18:28,630 --> 00:18:26,720
is out to get you and that there are

545
00:18:30,390 --> 00:18:28,640
these cabals that are pulling the

546
00:18:33,350 --> 00:18:30,400
strings like the puppet masters

547
00:18:35,029 --> 00:18:33,360
but we do see that there are conspiracy

548
00:18:37,270 --> 00:18:35,039
theories all over the world

549
00:18:38,710 --> 00:18:37,280
and a lot of them have this local

550
00:18:40,870 --> 00:18:38,720
connection

551
00:18:43,190 --> 00:18:40,880
uh i was quite surprised to learn just

552
00:18:45,430 --> 00:18:43,200
how popular q anon was was in

553
00:18:46,230 --> 00:18:45,440
the uk my home country and just because

554
00:18:47,909 --> 00:18:46,240
it's uh

555
00:18:50,150 --> 00:18:47,919
you get people in the uk who became

556
00:18:51,510 --> 00:18:50,160
obsessed with the american election

557
00:18:53,029 --> 00:18:51,520
uh which is certainly something that

558
00:18:53,909 --> 00:18:53,039
would never have happened when when i

559
00:18:55,909 --> 00:18:53,919
was growing up in

560
00:18:57,190 --> 00:18:55,919
in the uk we barely paid any attention

561
00:18:59,190 --> 00:18:57,200
to it at all

562
00:19:01,270 --> 00:18:59,200
uh but now it seems to be the you know a

563
00:19:03,990 --> 00:19:01,280
large part of people's existence

564
00:19:06,470 --> 00:19:04,000
it was the children campaign last year

565
00:19:08,310 --> 00:19:06,480
that pushed over the top there were 20

566
00:19:09,909 --> 00:19:08,320
different demonstrations throughout the

567
00:19:13,510 --> 00:19:09,919
uk last summer

568
00:19:16,549 --> 00:19:13,520
for save the children and it's this idea

569
00:19:19,029 --> 00:19:16,559
that we individually all have to

570
00:19:19,590 --> 00:19:19,039
prevent this child trafficking and you

571
00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:19,600
know

572
00:19:24,630 --> 00:19:22,960
the exploitation of the children it's a

573
00:19:26,870 --> 00:19:24,640
way of making

574
00:19:28,630 --> 00:19:26,880
every single person feel that it's their

575
00:19:31,430 --> 00:19:28,640
responsibility and duty

576
00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:31,440
to step up and so it's it's been a very

577
00:19:34,870 --> 00:19:32,640
effective campaign

578
00:19:36,630 --> 00:19:34,880
and it's been a very horrific campaign

579
00:19:37,750 --> 00:19:36,640
for the british charity save the

580
00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:37,760
children

581
00:19:41,430 --> 00:19:40,240
yes yeah which is you know i i recognize

582
00:19:43,110 --> 00:19:41,440
the name immediately because you know i

583
00:19:45,590 --> 00:19:43,120
grew up in the uk and say the children

584
00:19:47,270 --> 00:19:45,600
was an extremely uh popular charity

585
00:19:48,950 --> 00:19:47,280
uh when i was growing up and well

586
00:19:50,870 --> 00:19:48,960
regarded and now of course the name was

587
00:19:53,669 --> 00:19:50,880
being kind of uh

588
00:19:54,470 --> 00:19:53,679
corrupted by by the association with q

589
00:19:55,990 --> 00:19:54,480
anon

590
00:19:57,750 --> 00:19:56,000
uh but it kind of brings me to like the

591
00:19:58,710 --> 00:19:57,760
next point which is you know something

592
00:20:01,590 --> 00:19:58,720
that the book is

593
00:20:02,710 --> 00:20:01,600
kind of about pastels and pedophiles is

594
00:20:05,750 --> 00:20:02,720
the the female

595
00:20:08,470 --> 00:20:05,760
aspect of it uh and and

596
00:20:09,510 --> 00:20:08,480
you know the idea that humanoid in a way

597
00:20:11,510 --> 00:20:09,520
kind of became

598
00:20:12,950 --> 00:20:11,520
a little bit more feminized it started

599
00:20:15,149 --> 00:20:12,960
out as being this

600
00:20:16,390 --> 00:20:15,159
this thing that grew up in these toxic

601
00:20:19,909 --> 00:20:16,400
male-dominated

602
00:20:21,430 --> 00:20:19,919
uh message boards uh and it kind of made

603
00:20:25,110 --> 00:20:21,440
the shift

604
00:20:26,630 --> 00:20:25,120
uh can you describe how that happened

605
00:20:30,070 --> 00:20:26,640
and if it was

606
00:20:31,830 --> 00:20:30,080
a deliberate shift um so right that's

607
00:20:33,909 --> 00:20:31,840
another interesting difference

608
00:20:35,110 --> 00:20:33,919
between queuing on and traditional

609
00:20:37,990 --> 00:20:35,120
radical groups

610
00:20:38,950 --> 00:20:38,000
who tend to be male dominated and

611
00:20:41,590 --> 00:20:38,960
sometimes

612
00:20:42,789 --> 00:20:41,600
overtly you know forbid you know women

613
00:20:45,990 --> 00:20:42,799
from becoming part

614
00:20:49,190 --> 00:20:46,000
of their group um with q anon we

615
00:20:52,470 --> 00:20:49,200
saw um this interesting trend

616
00:20:55,990 --> 00:20:52,480
where yoga influencers

617
00:20:59,270 --> 00:20:56,000
and natural healing influencers

618
00:21:02,630 --> 00:20:59,280
and on instagram and on facebook began

619
00:21:05,830 --> 00:21:02,640
posting q a on content

620
00:21:07,750 --> 00:21:05,840
which overlapped with with their natural

621
00:21:09,510 --> 00:21:07,760
content so before they would say

622
00:21:10,950 --> 00:21:09,520
don't vaccinate your kids because it's

623
00:21:13,669 --> 00:21:10,960
going to cause autism

624
00:21:15,430 --> 00:21:13,679
and now they would say you know don't

625
00:21:17,029 --> 00:21:15,440
vaccinate

626
00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:17,039
kovit because it's going to turn your

627
00:21:21,990 --> 00:21:19,360
kids into lgbtq

628
00:21:22,549 --> 00:21:22,000
so they already had a very receptive

629
00:21:25,029 --> 00:21:22,559
crowd

630
00:21:26,870 --> 00:21:25,039
among their followers and it landed very

631
00:21:29,430 --> 00:21:26,880
well with them

632
00:21:30,230 --> 00:21:29,440
and of course it saved the children

633
00:21:31,909 --> 00:21:30,240
hashtag

634
00:21:34,310 --> 00:21:31,919
and all the messaging that came on put

635
00:21:35,510 --> 00:21:34,320
out spoke exclusively to women in a way

636
00:21:39,270 --> 00:21:35,520
that it didn't to men

637
00:21:41,750 --> 00:21:39,280
because you know many women have

638
00:21:42,710 --> 00:21:41,760
children of their own and they of course

639
00:21:46,630 --> 00:21:42,720
would

640
00:21:48,230 --> 00:21:46,640
have a kind of maternal instinct and a

641
00:21:50,070 --> 00:21:48,240
responsibility that they would feel to

642
00:21:53,110 --> 00:21:50,080
participate in this campaign

643
00:21:54,149 --> 00:21:53,120
um so that that became extremely popular

644
00:21:56,950 --> 00:21:54,159
with women

645
00:21:57,990 --> 00:21:56,960
and the third um interesting thing that

646
00:22:00,870 --> 00:21:58,000
happened was

647
00:22:01,990 --> 00:22:00,880
q anon really gained momentum at the

648
00:22:04,630 --> 00:22:02,000
same time as

649
00:22:06,390 --> 00:22:04,640
in the united states we had these really

650
00:22:08,470 --> 00:22:06,400
um

651
00:22:09,990 --> 00:22:08,480
polarizing political events happening

652
00:22:12,789 --> 00:22:10,000
around

653
00:22:14,149 --> 00:22:12,799
george floyd's murder and black lives

654
00:22:15,909 --> 00:22:14,159
matter protests

655
00:22:18,070 --> 00:22:15,919
and a lot of women especially white

656
00:22:19,270 --> 00:22:18,080
women who are middle class or upper

657
00:22:22,310 --> 00:22:19,280
middle class

658
00:22:24,630 --> 00:22:22,320
they didn't feel comfortable having

659
00:22:27,430 --> 00:22:24,640
these kinds of political discussions

660
00:22:28,549 --> 00:22:27,440
a lot of them are overtly or covertly

661
00:22:30,710 --> 00:22:28,559
racist

662
00:22:32,070 --> 00:22:30,720
and the alternative to having these

663
00:22:34,470 --> 00:22:32,080
political discussions

664
00:22:35,430 --> 00:22:34,480
was save the children because you would

665
00:22:38,149 --> 00:22:35,440
still be

666
00:22:39,270 --> 00:22:38,159
you know in this swirling political

667
00:22:41,669 --> 00:22:39,280
vortex

668
00:22:43,110 --> 00:22:41,679
but at the same time it's something that

669
00:22:45,029 --> 00:22:43,120
everybody could agree on

670
00:22:47,270 --> 00:22:45,039
in their social environment right so

671
00:22:49,190 --> 00:22:47,280
they bring up suffering children and who

672
00:22:50,710 --> 00:22:49,200
wouldn't want to

673
00:22:52,710 --> 00:22:50,720
you know do something about this

674
00:22:55,830 --> 00:22:52,720
horrible thing um so

675
00:22:56,950 --> 00:22:55,840
again a combination of factors that made

676
00:22:58,789 --> 00:22:56,960
q anon

677
00:23:00,549 --> 00:22:58,799
um we don't have the numbers because

678
00:23:02,470 --> 00:23:00,559
again of how large it is but

679
00:23:03,830 --> 00:23:02,480
it seems like at least 50 percent and

680
00:23:07,510 --> 00:23:03,840
maybe more

681
00:23:09,350 --> 00:23:07,520
um of q anon followers are women which

682
00:23:11,830 --> 00:23:09,360
which makes for an interesting situation

683
00:23:12,470 --> 00:23:11,840
because as as me as work and terrorism

684
00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:12,480
shows

685
00:23:16,630 --> 00:23:15,200
if you bring women on board to your

686
00:23:19,830 --> 00:23:16,640
political messaging

687
00:23:22,710 --> 00:23:19,840
you have a unique and very strong

688
00:23:24,390 --> 00:23:22,720
influence on their family members and me

689
00:23:24,950 --> 00:23:24,400
i'll let you speak about that a little

690
00:23:27,830 --> 00:23:24,960
more

691
00:23:29,350 --> 00:23:27,840
well so mick um my next book which is

692
00:23:30,390 --> 00:23:29,360
coming out in a few months it's in

693
00:23:33,430 --> 00:23:30,400
production now

694
00:23:36,149 --> 00:23:33,440
which was about the women in jihad

695
00:23:37,990 --> 00:23:36,159
and so it's called veiled threats and

696
00:23:39,190 --> 00:23:38,000
when you look at the way in which isis

697
00:23:41,269 --> 00:23:39,200
was recruiting

698
00:23:42,950 --> 00:23:41,279
the young girls from bethnal green

699
00:23:45,669 --> 00:23:42,960
academy in the uk

700
00:23:47,990 --> 00:23:45,679
they were asking young women did you

701
00:23:50,310 --> 00:23:48,000
want to help the orphans in syria

702
00:23:52,230 --> 00:23:50,320
and of course the answer was always yes

703
00:23:54,149 --> 00:23:52,240
and for me this is the equivalent of

704
00:23:56,149 --> 00:23:54,159
did you want to save the children

705
00:23:58,549 --> 00:23:56,159
because no one's going to say no

706
00:24:00,310 --> 00:23:58,559
to that question but it also speaks to

707
00:24:01,590 --> 00:24:00,320
women you know and again i don't want to

708
00:24:03,909 --> 00:24:01,600
give a stereotype

709
00:24:05,750 --> 00:24:03,919
that you know we're more maternal but i

710
00:24:09,190 --> 00:24:05,760
think it speaks to women at a very

711
00:24:09,830 --> 00:24:09,200
basic instinctive um way that they want

712
00:24:13,510 --> 00:24:09,840
to protect

713
00:24:15,909 --> 00:24:13,520
defenseless

714
00:24:16,870 --> 00:24:15,919
yeah yeah it's uh it's very interesting

715
00:24:18,470 --> 00:24:16,880
uh

716
00:24:19,990 --> 00:24:18,480
i it's very interesting how people get

717
00:24:22,950 --> 00:24:20,000
into uh the

718
00:24:24,789 --> 00:24:22,960
these you know non uh in specifically

719
00:24:25,110 --> 00:24:24,799
but conspiracy theories in general and

720
00:24:32,390 --> 00:24:25,120
uh

721
00:24:34,950 --> 00:24:32,400
you lay out this this idea of unfreezing

722
00:24:35,830 --> 00:24:34,960
where people kind of become uh unmoored

723
00:24:38,310 --> 00:24:35,840
from their

724
00:24:40,070 --> 00:24:38,320
their their norms their normal life

725
00:24:41,430 --> 00:24:40,080
something happens to them that they kind

726
00:24:44,789 --> 00:24:41,440
of change

727
00:24:47,350 --> 00:24:44,799
uh and they're seeking out uh

728
00:24:48,470 --> 00:24:47,360
kind of a new normal um sofia could you

729
00:24:51,269 --> 00:24:48,480
kind of talk about what

730
00:24:53,350 --> 00:24:51,279
what unfreezing actually is uh and how

731
00:24:56,789 --> 00:24:53,360
it works in this context

732
00:25:00,230 --> 00:24:56,799
right um unfreezing is actually a term

733
00:25:03,110 --> 00:25:00,240
that uh we talk about when we talk about

734
00:25:03,590 --> 00:25:03,120
radicalization to terrorism um because

735
00:25:06,710 --> 00:25:03,600
it is

736
00:25:09,430 --> 00:25:06,720
a pretty well researched pathway

737
00:25:11,110 --> 00:25:09,440
to radicalization when a person becomes

738
00:25:13,230 --> 00:25:11,120
disconnected from

739
00:25:15,510 --> 00:25:13,240
their community their their

740
00:25:16,390 --> 00:25:15,520
responsibilities their home life their

741
00:25:20,230 --> 00:25:16,400
work

742
00:25:23,510 --> 00:25:20,240
um and so there's no social norm

743
00:25:26,470 --> 00:25:23,520
to hold them to a standard

744
00:25:28,149 --> 00:25:26,480
they they maybe there is a tragedy that

745
00:25:29,830 --> 00:25:28,159
happened that

746
00:25:32,149 --> 00:25:29,840
makes them homeless or maybe they've

747
00:25:34,710 --> 00:25:32,159
relocated and don't have any

748
00:25:36,149 --> 00:25:34,720
anybody to turn to or you know maybe

749
00:25:37,669 --> 00:25:36,159
there's a war in the region and they

750
00:25:40,710 --> 00:25:37,679
become displaced

751
00:25:42,470 --> 00:25:40,720
um they come into the state of

752
00:25:43,909 --> 00:25:42,480
unfreezing which means like they're

753
00:25:47,350 --> 00:25:43,919
untethered to

754
00:25:50,230 --> 00:25:47,360
any moral scale any social

755
00:25:51,430 --> 00:25:50,240
normative system and so they're very

756
00:25:53,510 --> 00:25:51,440
vulnerable to

757
00:25:54,710 --> 00:25:53,520
radicalization efforts which a lot of

758
00:25:57,909 --> 00:25:54,720
radical groups

759
00:25:59,990 --> 00:25:57,919
and cults know about and they seek out

760
00:26:02,149 --> 00:26:00,000
individuals in this state specifically

761
00:26:05,190 --> 00:26:02,159
so you know cult recruiters

762
00:26:06,390 --> 00:26:05,200
often go to train stations and look for

763
00:26:08,310 --> 00:26:06,400
people who look kind of

764
00:26:10,310 --> 00:26:08,320
lost and miserable and then approach

765
00:26:12,870 --> 00:26:10,320
them and talk to them because they know

766
00:26:14,789 --> 00:26:12,880
that in this state if you offer the

767
00:26:18,710 --> 00:26:14,799
person companionship

768
00:26:20,789 --> 00:26:18,720
and a warm meal and a place to sleep

769
00:26:22,710 --> 00:26:20,799
they will accept the ideology that comes

770
00:26:25,909 --> 00:26:22,720
with it without questioning it

771
00:26:28,870 --> 00:26:25,919
and so what happened to us all

772
00:26:30,630 --> 00:26:28,880
in the past few years is a kind of a

773
00:26:33,590 --> 00:26:30,640
massive unfreezing

774
00:26:35,190 --> 00:26:33,600
there was so much change change going on

775
00:26:37,430 --> 00:26:35,200
politically

776
00:26:39,750 --> 00:26:37,440
in the united states you know we had

777
00:26:40,630 --> 00:26:39,760
trump presidency that was deliberately

778
00:26:42,230 --> 00:26:40,640
undermining

779
00:26:43,750 --> 00:26:42,240
traditional ways of doing things and

780
00:26:46,549 --> 00:26:43,760
traditional norms

781
00:26:48,070 --> 00:26:46,559
and it made a lot of us question you

782
00:26:48,789 --> 00:26:48,080
know what's right and what's wrong and

783
00:26:52,070 --> 00:26:48,799
who

784
00:26:55,190 --> 00:26:52,080
is there to protect us versus to take

785
00:26:58,470 --> 00:26:55,200
take advantage of us um we had

786
00:26:58,789 --> 00:26:58,480
a few sex scandals with figures that

787
00:27:01,909 --> 00:26:58,799
were

788
00:27:04,470 --> 00:27:01,919
until then held in very high regard so

789
00:27:06,390 --> 00:27:04,480
hollywood elite like harvey weinstein or

790
00:27:09,590 --> 00:27:06,400
bill cosby or

791
00:27:10,390 --> 00:27:09,600
washington elite like bill clinton or um

792
00:27:13,590 --> 00:27:10,400
anthony

793
00:27:14,149 --> 00:27:13,600
weiner um all of these stories chipped

794
00:27:17,350 --> 00:27:14,159
away

795
00:27:20,310 --> 00:27:17,360
at our trust in institutions

796
00:27:21,830 --> 00:27:20,320
and and the political hierarchy and the

797
00:27:23,830 --> 00:27:21,840
law as well

798
00:27:25,110 --> 00:27:23,840
because how could these atrocities go on

799
00:27:27,750 --> 00:27:25,120
for so long

800
00:27:28,230 --> 00:27:27,760
and nobody was there to stop them right

801
00:27:30,230 --> 00:27:28,240
um

802
00:27:31,750 --> 00:27:30,240
and also you know of course the covet

803
00:27:34,870 --> 00:27:31,760
pandemic made

804
00:27:38,549 --> 00:27:34,880
a particularly poignant emphasis

805
00:27:41,990 --> 00:27:38,559
on it but even until then the

806
00:27:45,510 --> 00:27:42,000
science and and pharmaceutical industry

807
00:27:46,870 --> 00:27:45,520
and medical industry were being kind of

808
00:27:50,310 --> 00:27:46,880
shaken by a number of

809
00:27:52,549 --> 00:27:50,320
very public scandals that exposed abuses

810
00:27:53,750 --> 00:27:52,559
of their power and privilege such as the

811
00:27:56,230 --> 00:27:53,760
opioid crisis

812
00:27:57,669 --> 00:27:56,240
and and all of these you know pesticides

813
00:28:00,070 --> 00:27:57,679
and poisons that we

814
00:28:01,590 --> 00:28:00,080
discover have been in our food and were

815
00:28:01,990 --> 00:28:01,600
covered up by an industry that was

816
00:28:05,510 --> 00:28:02,000
supposed

817
00:28:08,470 --> 00:28:05,520
to stand guard right so we have

818
00:28:09,669 --> 00:28:08,480
a lot of us experienced something like

819
00:28:11,669 --> 00:28:09,679
unfreezing

820
00:28:13,029 --> 00:28:11,679
um in its traditional sense on a very

821
00:28:14,789 --> 00:28:13,039
massive scale

822
00:28:16,230 --> 00:28:14,799
and so we were made to question our

823
00:28:18,389 --> 00:28:16,240
ideas of what's right what's wrong

824
00:28:21,190 --> 00:28:18,399
what's moral what is immoral

825
00:28:22,389 --> 00:28:21,200
who is the authority that we trust um

826
00:28:25,669 --> 00:28:22,399
and a lot of us came

827
00:28:26,870 --> 00:28:25,679
out of that questioning not trusting

828
00:28:28,870 --> 00:28:26,880
anybody really and

829
00:28:30,789 --> 00:28:28,880
seeking something completely different

830
00:28:34,070 --> 00:28:30,799
like 180 degree turn

831
00:28:37,350 --> 00:28:34,080
from the old and q anon of course

832
00:28:40,710 --> 00:28:37,360
swept in with this preposition that

833
00:28:43,110 --> 00:28:40,720
it's all a sham the government is all

834
00:28:44,549 --> 00:28:43,120
bad people the new hollywood elites are

835
00:28:47,830 --> 00:28:44,559
all pedophiles

836
00:28:49,830 --> 00:28:47,840
scientists are all quacks um

837
00:28:51,590 --> 00:28:49,840
and it spoke to a lot of people in the

838
00:28:54,310 --> 00:28:51,600
state of unfreezing and it made them

839
00:28:56,389 --> 00:28:54,320
listen to whatever stories cueing on

840
00:29:00,149 --> 00:28:56,399
told because in addition to this

841
00:29:03,269 --> 00:29:00,159
preposition q anon also was a community

842
00:29:05,669 --> 00:29:03,279
that offered support emotional support

843
00:29:06,710 --> 00:29:05,679
and companionship and somebody to talk

844
00:29:09,669 --> 00:29:06,720
to any time

845
00:29:10,630 --> 00:29:09,679
day or night with very little effort and

846
00:29:13,269 --> 00:29:10,640
so

847
00:29:15,590 --> 00:29:13,279
cueing on in a way was a radical

848
00:29:18,389 --> 00:29:15,600
movement that a lot of people

849
00:29:20,070 --> 00:29:18,399
um gravitated to as a result of this

850
00:29:21,990 --> 00:29:20,080
massive unfreezing

851
00:29:23,110 --> 00:29:22,000
yeah it's fascinating because it for me

852
00:29:25,750 --> 00:29:23,120
it resonates

853
00:29:26,149 --> 00:29:25,760
because it seems very similar to what

854
00:29:28,789 --> 00:29:26,159
i've

855
00:29:29,909 --> 00:29:28,799
uh experienced when i talk to conspiracy

856
00:29:31,590 --> 00:29:29,919
theories in you know the more

857
00:29:33,110 --> 00:29:31,600
traditional conspiracy theorists like

858
00:29:36,310 --> 00:29:33,120
people who have fallen into

859
00:29:39,029 --> 00:29:36,320
9 11 or even like the flat earth people

860
00:29:40,630 --> 00:29:39,039
they usually have something going on in

861
00:29:42,549 --> 00:29:40,640
their lives

862
00:29:44,389 --> 00:29:42,559
uh around the time that they have their

863
00:29:46,710 --> 00:29:44,399
their red pill moment

864
00:29:47,430 --> 00:29:46,720
uh and you know for a lot of them it's

865
00:29:50,789 --> 00:29:47,440
simply being

866
00:29:52,549 --> 00:29:50,799
unemployed and it's it's having a lot of

867
00:29:54,549 --> 00:29:52,559
spare time here's the old saying the

868
00:29:55,350 --> 00:29:54,559
devil will find work for idol hands to

869
00:29:57,830 --> 00:29:55,360
do

870
00:29:58,389 --> 00:29:57,840
which is kind of true because you know

871
00:30:01,750 --> 00:29:58,399
people's

872
00:30:03,430 --> 00:30:01,760
direction when they are like you say

873
00:30:06,789 --> 00:30:03,440
kind of untethered

874
00:30:08,070 --> 00:30:06,799
and unfrozen yeah one of the reasons

875
00:30:11,110 --> 00:30:08,080
it's going to be so popular

876
00:30:14,710 --> 00:30:11,120
in the uk there was the jimmy savile

877
00:30:16,870 --> 00:30:14,720
scandal and so it starts to look like

878
00:30:19,350 --> 00:30:16,880
well savile was friends with prince

879
00:30:19,909 --> 00:30:19,360
charles and he was at the palace all the

880
00:30:20,950 --> 00:30:19,919
time

881
00:30:23,269 --> 00:30:20,960
and then there were all these

882
00:30:25,990 --> 00:30:23,279
accusations around the royal family

883
00:30:26,870 --> 00:30:26,000
and so what happens is you only need the

884
00:30:29,909 --> 00:30:26,880
tiniest

885
00:30:31,430 --> 00:30:29,919
kernel of truth for some of these crazy

886
00:30:33,830 --> 00:30:31,440
conspiracy theories

887
00:30:34,789 --> 00:30:33,840
to start to sound like they make sense

888
00:30:37,190 --> 00:30:34,799
and and you know

889
00:30:39,110 --> 00:30:37,200
we often joke that even a broken clock

890
00:30:41,750 --> 00:30:39,120
is accurate twice a day

891
00:30:43,909 --> 00:30:41,760
so no matter how many times qnon was

892
00:30:46,389 --> 00:30:43,919
generating these crazy ideas

893
00:30:47,830 --> 00:30:46,399
and these falsehoods and prophecies that

894
00:30:49,510 --> 00:30:47,840
never saw fruition

895
00:30:50,950 --> 00:30:49,520
the one or two times that they could

896
00:30:53,669 --> 00:30:50,960
point to a real

897
00:30:55,350 --> 00:30:53,679
example made everything else seem

898
00:30:57,110 --> 00:30:55,360
plausible

899
00:30:59,110 --> 00:30:57,120
yeah you have the section in in the book

900
00:31:00,470 --> 00:30:59,120
called true lies where you talk about

901
00:31:03,669 --> 00:31:00,480
the various different things

902
00:31:06,630 --> 00:31:03,679
uh that's that people yeah

903
00:31:07,029 --> 00:31:06,640
raise concerns about uh which for them

904
00:31:12,710 --> 00:31:07,039
are

905
00:31:14,789 --> 00:31:12,720
uh and this was interesting for me

906
00:31:16,470 --> 00:31:14,799
because you know when i i talk about how

907
00:31:18,230 --> 00:31:16,480
to talk to people

908
00:31:19,909 --> 00:31:18,240
what i i talked to one of the things i

909
00:31:21,830 --> 00:31:19,919
mentioned is something that

910
00:31:25,110 --> 00:31:21,840
i think daniel dennett like suggested

911
00:31:27,269 --> 00:31:25,120
which is is validate their true concerns

912
00:31:29,029 --> 00:31:27,279
uh where you try to figure out you know

913
00:31:31,990 --> 00:31:29,039
what are they actually concerned about

914
00:31:33,029 --> 00:31:32,000
and then you know talk about about that

915
00:31:34,870 --> 00:31:33,039
it seems in a way

916
00:31:37,750 --> 00:31:34,880
that kind of approaches being somewhat

917
00:31:38,310 --> 00:31:37,760
weaponized like by q anon when they they

918
00:31:40,950 --> 00:31:38,320
take

919
00:31:42,310 --> 00:31:40,960
valid concerns and they just kind of

920
00:31:45,669 --> 00:31:42,320
tweak them and then lead them

921
00:31:45,990 --> 00:31:45,679
in a certain uh direction you you have

922
00:31:54,149 --> 00:31:46,000
the

923
00:31:55,909 --> 00:31:54,159
changing even like different

924
00:31:57,350 --> 00:31:55,919
changing dietary guidelines and things

925
00:31:58,630 --> 00:31:57,360
like that eggs are good one year and

926
00:32:00,389 --> 00:31:58,640
then the next year they're not they're

927
00:32:01,750 --> 00:32:00,399
not good and people start distrusting

928
00:32:05,029 --> 00:32:01,760
science it's a

929
00:32:07,029 --> 00:32:05,039
strange slippery slope uh but you've got

930
00:32:08,310 --> 00:32:07,039
this uh this really nice diagram which

931
00:32:11,269 --> 00:32:08,320
i'll pop up on screen

932
00:32:12,789 --> 00:32:11,279
uh when i do the final edit but uh it's

933
00:32:16,230 --> 00:32:12,799
it's kind of showing how you

934
00:32:17,750 --> 00:32:16,240
how people go from this state of these

935
00:32:20,950 --> 00:32:17,760
unfortunate social domains

936
00:32:24,389 --> 00:32:20,960
through what you describe as folklore

937
00:32:25,830 --> 00:32:24,399
uh which is this large collection of

938
00:32:26,630 --> 00:32:25,840
things and we're looking in this this

939
00:32:31,590 --> 00:32:26,640
little

940
00:32:33,909 --> 00:32:31,600
and you have you have flat earth

941
00:32:36,950 --> 00:32:33,919
in in folklore how does flat earth

942
00:32:40,070 --> 00:32:36,960
connect to human armor

943
00:32:43,110 --> 00:32:40,080
i think this flood earth is is one of

944
00:32:45,029 --> 00:32:43,120
the narratives within folklore

945
00:32:46,230 --> 00:32:45,039
that speaks to people who distrust

946
00:32:49,029 --> 00:32:46,240
science

947
00:32:51,110 --> 00:32:49,039
in general it also includes you know

948
00:32:53,110 --> 00:32:51,120
vaccine denialism and the idea that

949
00:32:55,190 --> 00:32:53,120
kovit was developed as a bioweapon and

950
00:32:56,310 --> 00:32:55,200
used by the cabal to capitalize on the

951
00:32:58,389 --> 00:32:56,320
pandemic

952
00:32:59,430 --> 00:32:58,399
and and mass production and things like

953
00:33:02,870 --> 00:32:59,440
that um

954
00:33:06,310 --> 00:33:02,880
and there is a a sizable proportion of q

955
00:33:08,950 --> 00:33:06,320
on followers who just distrust anything

956
00:33:10,789 --> 00:33:08,960
that comes out of a scientific journal

957
00:33:13,430 --> 00:33:10,799
or you know dr fauci's

958
00:33:15,750 --> 00:33:13,440
is the evil guy for them and so on and

959
00:33:19,269 --> 00:33:15,760
just to speak to what you just said

960
00:33:22,549 --> 00:33:19,279
um queuing on really i mean

961
00:33:25,830 --> 00:33:22,559
to put a positive spin on this disaster

962
00:33:30,470 --> 00:33:25,840
if we may um hunan really

963
00:33:33,830 --> 00:33:30,480
exposed to all of us whose eyes are open

964
00:33:36,230 --> 00:33:33,840
real problems we have with transparency

965
00:33:36,870 --> 00:33:36,240
in the government with accountability of

966
00:33:39,669 --> 00:33:36,880
people who

967
00:33:40,630 --> 00:33:39,679
are the elites with some of the

968
00:33:44,149 --> 00:33:40,640
unscrupulous

969
00:33:45,990 --> 00:33:44,159
practices among you know scientists and

970
00:33:47,110 --> 00:33:46,000
pharmaceuticals who stand to benefit

971
00:33:49,830 --> 00:33:47,120
financially from

972
00:33:50,710 --> 00:33:49,840
covering up certain research or you know

973
00:33:54,870 --> 00:33:50,720
doing

974
00:33:57,909 --> 00:33:54,880
shady research and so on and

975
00:33:59,830 --> 00:33:57,919
one way to seek hearing on is

976
00:34:01,029 --> 00:33:59,840
it's a lot of people who are hurting you

977
00:34:04,310 --> 00:34:01,039
know

978
00:34:07,590 --> 00:34:04,320
and whom to trust

979
00:34:10,790 --> 00:34:07,600
is a horrible place to be emotionally

980
00:34:13,270 --> 00:34:10,800
and cueing on narratives is their way of

981
00:34:13,909 --> 00:34:13,280
coping with this hurt i mean creating

982
00:34:17,190 --> 00:34:13,919
stories

983
00:34:20,310 --> 00:34:17,200
and telling our story is how we all we

984
00:34:22,470 --> 00:34:20,320
humans are processing pain

985
00:34:23,430 --> 00:34:22,480
that's why talk therapy can be really

986
00:34:25,909 --> 00:34:23,440
helpful

987
00:34:27,750 --> 00:34:25,919
so if we look at it from this

988
00:34:29,669 --> 00:34:27,760
perspective

989
00:34:31,430 --> 00:34:29,679
there are a lot of hurting people among

990
00:34:32,710 --> 00:34:31,440
us and they're hurting for reasons that

991
00:34:35,430 --> 00:34:32,720
are legitimate

992
00:34:36,069 --> 00:34:35,440
outside of the story they tell about you

993
00:34:39,589 --> 00:34:36,079
know

994
00:34:41,829 --> 00:34:39,599
instead of

995
00:34:42,710 --> 00:34:41,839
demonizing them which is an impulse that

996
00:34:45,589 --> 00:34:42,720
you know

997
00:34:46,869 --> 00:34:45,599
happens or or wanting to argue with them

998
00:34:49,990 --> 00:34:46,879
or put them down

999
00:34:51,109 --> 00:34:50,000
or just completely ignore them the best

1000
00:34:53,669 --> 00:34:51,119
thing we can take

1001
00:34:55,349 --> 00:34:53,679
out of this situation is we need to

1002
00:34:57,109 --> 00:34:55,359
solve a lot of problems

1003
00:34:59,829 --> 00:34:57,119
and we need to help a lot of these

1004
00:35:02,790 --> 00:34:59,839
people if we want to move on from this

1005
00:35:04,710 --> 00:35:02,800
as a single country as a society that's

1006
00:35:06,710 --> 00:35:04,720
capable of moving forward

1007
00:35:08,550 --> 00:35:06,720
with functioning institutions and a

1008
00:35:10,710 --> 00:35:08,560
functioning democracy

1009
00:35:12,390 --> 00:35:10,720
one of the things you've noticed is that

1010
00:35:14,550 --> 00:35:12,400
people tend to layer their con

1011
00:35:16,230 --> 00:35:14,560
their belief in conspiracy theories so

1012
00:35:18,069 --> 00:35:16,240
that if they are

1013
00:35:19,829 --> 00:35:18,079
uh if they believe that the moon landing

1014
00:35:21,270 --> 00:35:19,839
was faked there's a good chance they

1015
00:35:22,710 --> 00:35:21,280
also are a birther

1016
00:35:25,510 --> 00:35:22,720
there's a good chance that they also

1017
00:35:27,829 --> 00:35:25,520
believe that 911 was an inside job

1018
00:35:29,589 --> 00:35:27,839
and the chemtrails and so one of the

1019
00:35:31,670 --> 00:35:29,599
things that was unique about that image

1020
00:35:33,670 --> 00:35:31,680
was to give you this idea that cunan

1021
00:35:35,430 --> 00:35:33,680
had become almost you know as anna

1022
00:35:38,950 --> 00:35:35,440
merlin from the atlantic said

1023
00:35:41,990 --> 00:35:38,960
it was a you know it was like a

1024
00:35:45,510 --> 00:35:42,000
conspiracy singularity so now

1025
00:35:47,270 --> 00:35:45,520
q anon is able to absorb almost like the

1026
00:35:50,150 --> 00:35:47,280
borg and star trek

1027
00:35:51,670 --> 00:35:50,160
all of the pre-existing um conspiracy

1028
00:35:54,390 --> 00:35:51,680
theories that existed

1029
00:35:55,670 --> 00:35:54,400
years prior to it and so those people

1030
00:35:58,150 --> 00:35:55,680
don't feel isolated

1031
00:36:00,230 --> 00:35:58,160
tin foil hat wearing crazies anymore now

1032
00:36:02,310 --> 00:36:00,240
they're welcomed into a new community

1033
00:36:04,069 --> 00:36:02,320
yeah so the the flat earthers and the

1034
00:36:04,470 --> 00:36:04,079
911 people can kind of get together at

1035
00:36:07,510 --> 00:36:04,480
last

1036
00:36:09,750 --> 00:36:07,520
uh it's just it's very weird for me

1037
00:36:11,750 --> 00:36:09,760
uh because you know i could have lived

1038
00:36:12,550 --> 00:36:11,760
in this this conspiracy world for for a

1039
00:36:14,150 --> 00:36:12,560
while

1040
00:36:15,670 --> 00:36:14,160
and they have always been kind of you

1041
00:36:18,790 --> 00:36:15,680
know siloed and uh

1042
00:36:19,670 --> 00:36:18,800
isolated uh and you know the the people

1043
00:36:21,750 --> 00:36:19,680
who

1044
00:36:23,910 --> 00:36:21,760
were flat earth people would not talk to

1045
00:36:25,990 --> 00:36:23,920
911 people 911 people wouldn't talk to

1046
00:36:28,069 --> 00:36:26,000
ufo people ufo people wouldn't talk to

1047
00:36:29,750 --> 00:36:28,079
the chemtrail people

1048
00:36:31,589 --> 00:36:29,760
and now the idea that they've all kind

1049
00:36:34,630 --> 00:36:31,599
of come together

1050
00:36:37,750 --> 00:36:34,640
is is is is very strange to me

1051
00:36:38,390 --> 00:36:37,760
and i think it's kind of a new world in

1052
00:36:42,390 --> 00:36:38,400
a way

1053
00:36:44,790 --> 00:36:42,400
and i think the these these individual

1054
00:36:45,750 --> 00:36:44,800
people who just focus on one conspiracy

1055
00:36:47,910 --> 00:36:45,760
theory

1056
00:36:49,430 --> 00:36:47,920
are going to kind of fade away to a

1057
00:36:49,829 --> 00:36:49,440
degree and you're going to have more and

1058
00:36:52,950 --> 00:36:49,839
more

1059
00:36:54,150 --> 00:36:52,960
of this meta conspiracies where

1060
00:36:56,230 --> 00:36:54,160
everything is is

1061
00:36:57,270 --> 00:36:56,240
enclosed together which is interesting

1062
00:36:59,990 --> 00:36:57,280
to see

1063
00:37:02,069 --> 00:37:00,000
how it plays out over the coming years

1064
00:37:04,790 --> 00:37:02,079
but i think your instinct about

1065
00:37:07,190 --> 00:37:04,800
identifying this is from your book but

1066
00:37:10,390 --> 00:37:07,200
identifying where someone's limit

1067
00:37:13,510 --> 00:37:10,400
is and then starting from that point and

1068
00:37:15,430 --> 00:37:13,520
and working backwards is very similar to

1069
00:37:18,390 --> 00:37:15,440
what sophia's been advocating

1070
00:37:19,270 --> 00:37:18,400
and so before we even talked about being

1071
00:37:22,390 --> 00:37:19,280
on your show

1072
00:37:23,190 --> 00:37:22,400
i'd written you a fan letter to say by

1073
00:37:25,109 --> 00:37:23,200
the way

1074
00:37:26,310 --> 00:37:25,119
i just read your book and i've listened

1075
00:37:29,510 --> 00:37:26,320
to your podcast

1076
00:37:31,510 --> 00:37:29,520
and i absolutely love it because i don't

1077
00:37:31,910 --> 00:37:31,520
know if you're trained as a psychologist

1078
00:37:35,190 --> 00:37:31,920
but

1079
00:37:36,950 --> 00:37:35,200
your instincts were so good to identify

1080
00:37:39,990 --> 00:37:36,960
the parameters of belief

1081
00:37:42,710 --> 00:37:40,000
and where the disbelief begins

1082
00:37:45,190 --> 00:37:42,720
and that's your starting point yeah i'm

1083
00:37:48,630 --> 00:37:45,200
not trained as anything

1084
00:37:51,430 --> 00:37:48,640
uh except for 3d graphics and computers

1085
00:37:53,109 --> 00:37:51,440
uh but uh i think what it comes from is

1086
00:37:55,670 --> 00:37:53,119
just simply talking to a lot of people

1087
00:37:56,790 --> 00:37:55,680
and uh you know a lot uh a lot of the

1088
00:37:58,550 --> 00:37:56,800
time people

1089
00:38:00,310 --> 00:37:58,560
form their opinions about conspiracy

1090
00:38:02,310 --> 00:38:00,320
theories and conspiracy theorists

1091
00:38:04,390 --> 00:38:02,320
without ever really interacting

1092
00:38:05,349 --> 00:38:04,400
with any of them and you get this idea

1093
00:38:07,349 --> 00:38:05,359
that they're just

1094
00:38:09,190 --> 00:38:07,359
tinfoil hat wearing crazies which some

1095
00:38:12,150 --> 00:38:09,200
of them are but a lot of them are just

1096
00:38:13,030 --> 00:38:12,160
regular people just very very ordinary

1097
00:38:15,030 --> 00:38:13,040
people who have just

1098
00:38:16,710 --> 00:38:15,040
you know fallen into into some kind of

1099
00:38:19,109 --> 00:38:16,720
rabbit hole and they've

1100
00:38:20,710 --> 00:38:19,119
made some mistakes uh about you know the

1101
00:38:22,550 --> 00:38:20,720
way the world works and they've ended up

1102
00:38:25,270 --> 00:38:22,560
in this this strange

1103
00:38:27,510 --> 00:38:25,280
uh blend of fantasy and reality where

1104
00:38:29,190 --> 00:38:27,520
they really are ordinary people

1105
00:38:30,870 --> 00:38:29,200
and they do have their limits they do

1106
00:38:32,950 --> 00:38:30,880
have their limits and identifying those

1107
00:38:35,190 --> 00:38:32,960
limits is very important

1108
00:38:36,230 --> 00:38:35,200
we wanted to also and we said this a few

1109
00:38:38,150 --> 00:38:36,240
times in the book

1110
00:38:40,310 --> 00:38:38,160
you know we didn't want to sit there and

1111
00:38:41,430 --> 00:38:40,320
and even sofia said it today

1112
00:38:43,670 --> 00:38:41,440
we didn't want to sit there and say

1113
00:38:44,550 --> 00:38:43,680
they're all idiots and they're you know

1114
00:38:47,030 --> 00:38:44,560
gullible

1115
00:38:48,790 --> 00:38:47,040
or they're just you know i mean putin

1116
00:38:50,230 --> 00:38:48,800
may see them as useful idiots we don't

1117
00:38:53,910 --> 00:38:50,240
want to call them idiots

1118
00:38:55,829 --> 00:38:53,920
but we have people with master's degrees

1119
00:38:57,190 --> 00:38:55,839
there are people who believe in q anon

1120
00:38:59,510 --> 00:38:57,200
who are professionals

1121
00:39:01,990 --> 00:38:59,520
there are people who went to harvard so

1122
00:39:05,190 --> 00:39:02,000
we're not dealing just with this

1123
00:39:05,910 --> 00:39:05,200
lower echelon uneducated you know sort

1124
00:39:08,710 --> 00:39:05,920
of this

1125
00:39:09,510 --> 00:39:08,720
notion of you know trash no not at all

1126
00:39:11,670 --> 00:39:09,520
we've got

1127
00:39:12,710 --> 00:39:11,680
a trash of people from across the

1128
00:39:14,950 --> 00:39:12,720
spectrum

1129
00:39:16,470 --> 00:39:14,960
and so we have to take it seriously to

1130
00:39:19,670 --> 00:39:16,480
do otherwise you know

1131
00:39:21,109 --> 00:39:19,680
we proceed at our own peril all right so

1132
00:39:23,190 --> 00:39:21,119
let's talk a bit about you know what can

1133
00:39:24,150 --> 00:39:23,200
we do about about q anon and this is

1134
00:39:26,790 --> 00:39:24,160
kind of the focus of

1135
00:39:27,430 --> 00:39:26,800
chapter four of the book uh life after

1136
00:39:29,589 --> 00:39:27,440
cue

1137
00:39:30,630 --> 00:39:29,599
and you start off talking about what

1138
00:39:32,790 --> 00:39:30,640
happens to people

1139
00:39:33,990 --> 00:39:32,800
after joe biden's inauguration

1140
00:39:37,270 --> 00:39:34,000
essentially and

1141
00:39:40,390 --> 00:39:37,280
the january vi revolution didn't pan out

1142
00:39:42,069 --> 00:39:40,400
the storm never arrived uh so you know

1143
00:39:43,750 --> 00:39:42,079
what what happens to people in this

1144
00:39:47,109 --> 00:39:43,760
there's like a range of

1145
00:39:47,589 --> 00:39:47,119
of of outcomes uh that you talk about

1146
00:39:49,030 --> 00:39:47,599
and maybe

1147
00:39:51,030 --> 00:39:49,040
sophia you could kind of go over that

1148
00:39:53,430 --> 00:39:51,040
the the die hards the doubters and

1149
00:39:54,630 --> 00:39:53,440
the defectors and you know why why

1150
00:39:55,910 --> 00:39:54,640
people arrive at these different

1151
00:39:59,109 --> 00:39:55,920
destinations from

1152
00:39:59,910 --> 00:39:59,119
the same position there have now been

1153
00:40:02,950 --> 00:39:59,920
several

1154
00:40:05,670 --> 00:40:02,960
more than one of these uh events that

1155
00:40:06,550 --> 00:40:05,680
q anon predicted wouldn't happen or

1156
00:40:08,630 --> 00:40:06,560
something else

1157
00:40:10,309 --> 00:40:08,640
so the you know election was supposed to

1158
00:40:12,069 --> 00:40:10,319
go to donald trump

1159
00:40:13,910 --> 00:40:12,079
and then the inauguration was not

1160
00:40:16,790 --> 00:40:13,920
supposed to inaugurate

1161
00:40:17,190 --> 00:40:16,800
joe biden but donald trump and every

1162
00:40:20,710 --> 00:40:17,200
time

1163
00:40:24,150 --> 00:40:20,720
that the prophecy doesn't pan out

1164
00:40:25,270 --> 00:40:24,160
um we see you know the same kind of

1165
00:40:29,030 --> 00:40:25,280
waves of

1166
00:40:30,069 --> 00:40:29,040
some discontent and people are roughly

1167
00:40:33,109 --> 00:40:30,079
divided into

1168
00:40:34,870 --> 00:40:33,119
three camps so the die-hards are

1169
00:40:38,790 --> 00:40:34,880
sticking to their guns

1170
00:40:40,550 --> 00:40:38,800
and they explain this non-event in the

1171
00:40:42,870 --> 00:40:40,560
same way as they explain everything else

1172
00:40:44,710 --> 00:40:42,880
through another conspiracy theory so

1173
00:40:46,470 --> 00:40:44,720
the inauguration really like the

1174
00:40:47,510 --> 00:40:46,480
election really did go to trump and the

1175
00:40:49,510 --> 00:40:47,520
inauguration

1176
00:40:51,670 --> 00:40:49,520
even though it seemed like it was bite

1177
00:40:54,069 --> 00:40:51,680
and it wasn't really biden or maybe

1178
00:40:55,990 --> 00:40:54,079
it was pre-recorded and the actual

1179
00:40:56,790 --> 00:40:56,000
inauguration happened at the right place

1180
00:40:59,109 --> 00:40:56,800
at the right time but

1181
00:41:01,030 --> 00:40:59,119
donald trump somebody was saying that

1182
00:41:03,270 --> 00:41:01,040
you know if you look really carefully

1183
00:41:04,390 --> 00:41:03,280
on the video of joe biden swearing on

1184
00:41:08,309 --> 00:41:04,400
the bible

1185
00:41:10,069 --> 00:41:08,319
it's not a real bible

1186
00:41:12,150 --> 00:41:10,079
and somebody else counted the number of

1187
00:41:14,950 --> 00:41:12,160
flags at the inauguration and it was

1188
00:41:15,910 --> 00:41:14,960
numbers numbered 17. and guess what

1189
00:41:19,270 --> 00:41:15,920
letter

1190
00:41:21,030 --> 00:41:19,280
is 17 in the alphabet it's q so clearly

1191
00:41:23,430 --> 00:41:21,040
you know they say this was a message to

1192
00:41:23,990 --> 00:41:23,440
all of us this is not for real but you

1193
00:41:28,470 --> 00:41:24,000
know

1194
00:41:29,510 --> 00:41:28,480
running the country behind the scenes as

1195
00:41:31,430 --> 00:41:29,520
he's rounding up

1196
00:41:33,270 --> 00:41:31,440
members of the cabal and getting ready

1197
00:41:35,750 --> 00:41:33,280
for this mass execution so

1198
00:41:37,510 --> 00:41:35,760
the die hards are so deep into this

1199
00:41:40,710 --> 00:41:37,520
hearing on rabbit hole they can't

1200
00:41:43,829 --> 00:41:40,720
possibly see the light and then they're

1201
00:41:47,670 --> 00:41:43,839
doubters this is a group who you know

1202
00:41:50,950 --> 00:41:47,680
they are trying to reconcile

1203
00:41:53,510 --> 00:41:50,960
what they accept as reality with

1204
00:41:55,430 --> 00:41:53,520
the cueing on folklore that they're not

1205
00:41:57,510 --> 00:41:55,440
yet ready to let go of

1206
00:41:59,270 --> 00:41:57,520
and they're having a lot of emotional

1207
00:42:02,550 --> 00:41:59,280
problems they express

1208
00:42:05,589 --> 00:42:02,560
a lot of you know depression anxiety

1209
00:42:08,790 --> 00:42:05,599
suicidal gestures or ideations

1210
00:42:11,190 --> 00:42:08,800
um and they're going online in search

1211
00:42:13,109 --> 00:42:11,200
of answers to questions that are raised

1212
00:42:16,390 --> 00:42:13,119
by these reality checks

1213
00:42:18,630 --> 00:42:16,400
um and unfortunately very often they are

1214
00:42:20,470 --> 00:42:18,640
targeted when they do that by radical

1215
00:42:23,430 --> 00:42:20,480
groups that are not queuing on

1216
00:42:25,190 --> 00:42:23,440
like right-wing militias um who are

1217
00:42:27,750 --> 00:42:25,200
ready to you know embrace them

1218
00:42:29,589 --> 00:42:27,760
and and offer them an explanation for

1219
00:42:30,069 --> 00:42:29,599
how q anon is dumb and they've been

1220
00:42:33,030 --> 00:42:30,079
misleading

1221
00:42:33,670 --> 00:42:33,040
them all this time but this neo-nazi

1222
00:42:35,910 --> 00:42:33,680
group has

1223
00:42:37,190 --> 00:42:35,920
all the answers so that's a troubling

1224
00:42:39,510 --> 00:42:37,200
trajectory

1225
00:42:41,589 --> 00:42:39,520
um that that we're seeing in the in the

1226
00:42:44,309 --> 00:42:41,599
online chatter among doubters

1227
00:42:45,349 --> 00:42:44,319
um and and then there are defectors and

1228
00:42:46,950 --> 00:42:45,359
that's

1229
00:42:48,710 --> 00:42:46,960
you know those individuals who for

1230
00:42:51,750 --> 00:42:48,720
whatever reason some of them you know

1231
00:42:54,790 --> 00:42:51,760
before january 6 they discovered some

1232
00:42:58,069 --> 00:42:54,800
gaping inconsistency in q a narrative

1233
00:42:58,790 --> 00:42:58,079
and you know had the presence of mind to

1234
00:43:01,270 --> 00:42:58,800
really

1235
00:43:04,230 --> 00:43:01,280
logically address them and arrive at the

1236
00:43:06,870 --> 00:43:04,240
conclusion that queuing on must be false

1237
00:43:07,670 --> 00:43:06,880
um others you know their lives have

1238
00:43:09,670 --> 00:43:07,680
circled

1239
00:43:11,349 --> 00:43:09,680
cycled so out of control because of

1240
00:43:13,270 --> 00:43:11,359
their q anon following

1241
00:43:15,109 --> 00:43:13,280
they had a nervous breakdown had to go

1242
00:43:16,390 --> 00:43:15,119
to a mental hospital

1243
00:43:18,150 --> 00:43:16,400
where you know they were treated with

1244
00:43:19,910 --> 00:43:18,160
medications that they needed in therapy

1245
00:43:20,950 --> 00:43:19,920
and in the end they ended up disavowing

1246
00:43:23,510 --> 00:43:20,960
keeping on

1247
00:43:25,030 --> 00:43:23,520
or maybe they'd lost their jobs which

1248
00:43:26,630 --> 00:43:25,040
happened to a lot of these people or

1249
00:43:29,430 --> 00:43:26,640
they lost their family

1250
00:43:30,470 --> 00:43:29,440
um and of course the january 6th

1251
00:43:32,630 --> 00:43:30,480
situation was

1252
00:43:34,309 --> 00:43:32,640
a rude awakening to a lot of them so the

1253
00:43:36,790 --> 00:43:34,319
third group are those people who

1254
00:43:38,870 --> 00:43:36,800
are officially or at least they're

1255
00:43:40,950 --> 00:43:38,880
saying they're out of queueing on

1256
00:43:42,630 --> 00:43:40,960
um and again they're very vulnerable

1257
00:43:45,030 --> 00:43:42,640
because they've lost this huge

1258
00:43:46,309 --> 00:43:45,040
chunk of their lives these connections

1259
00:43:47,430 --> 00:43:46,319
with other people that were really

1260
00:43:50,069 --> 00:43:47,440
important to them

1261
00:43:51,670 --> 00:43:50,079
and a set of beliefs and a moral

1262
00:43:53,670 --> 00:43:51,680
certainty that they're doing the right

1263
00:43:56,550 --> 00:43:53,680
thing while everybody else is

1264
00:43:57,750 --> 00:43:56,560
you know lost sheep and so you know this

1265
00:44:00,309 --> 00:43:57,760
is another group that

1266
00:44:01,829 --> 00:44:00,319
that is there it's possible that they

1267
00:44:05,270 --> 00:44:01,839
will relapse

1268
00:44:06,950 --> 00:44:05,280
if their their mental health needs are

1269
00:44:08,230 --> 00:44:06,960
not addressed if their social needs are

1270
00:44:10,790 --> 00:44:08,240
not addressed

1271
00:44:11,990 --> 00:44:10,800
we don't yet know how they're gonna fare

1272
00:44:14,390 --> 00:44:12,000
long-term but

1273
00:44:16,390 --> 00:44:14,400
um the promising thing is that people

1274
00:44:19,270 --> 00:44:16,400
are able to leave queuing on

1275
00:44:20,870 --> 00:44:19,280
um and some of them become very vocal

1276
00:44:22,710 --> 00:44:20,880
advocates for others and you know

1277
00:44:26,390 --> 00:44:22,720
they're people who've established

1278
00:44:29,270 --> 00:44:26,400
uh um places on the internet for

1279
00:44:29,829 --> 00:44:29,280
for others like them to come and and

1280
00:44:31,910 --> 00:44:29,839
seek

1281
00:44:33,349 --> 00:44:31,920
the whatever you know companionship and

1282
00:44:36,470 --> 00:44:33,359
support that they need

1283
00:44:38,150 --> 00:44:36,480
um or they spoke out in in the in the

1284
00:44:39,589 --> 00:44:38,160
news they gave interviews to journalists

1285
00:44:42,230 --> 00:44:39,599
to just give voice

1286
00:44:43,670 --> 00:44:42,240
to this other possibility on the other

1287
00:44:45,990 --> 00:44:43,680
end of queuing on

1288
00:44:47,910 --> 00:44:46,000
um mia you wanted to add something well

1289
00:44:49,349 --> 00:44:47,920
so we know actually because sophie and i

1290
00:44:50,630 --> 00:44:49,359
have been working on terrorism for a

1291
00:44:53,270 --> 00:44:50,640
very long time

1292
00:44:55,190 --> 00:44:53,280
um we know from the cve which is

1293
00:44:57,349 --> 00:44:55,200
countering violent extremism

1294
00:44:59,430 --> 00:44:57,359
there's like this whole literature about

1295
00:45:02,230 --> 00:44:59,440
how do you get someone who's a terrorist

1296
00:45:04,150 --> 00:45:02,240
to leave the group and so actually a

1297
00:45:06,710 --> 00:45:04,160
friend of mine christian picciolini

1298
00:45:07,670 --> 00:45:06,720
who previously was a neo-nazi and he's

1299
00:45:10,870 --> 00:45:07,680
had a show on

1300
00:45:12,550 --> 00:45:10,880
msnbc and he's written a number of books

1301
00:45:14,550 --> 00:45:12,560
he talks about the fact that when he

1302
00:45:17,349 --> 00:45:14,560
personally started to have

1303
00:45:19,430 --> 00:45:17,359
doubts about being a neo-nazi he was so

1304
00:45:21,670 --> 00:45:19,440
afraid of being found out

1305
00:45:22,950 --> 00:45:21,680
that actually he got more neo-nazi

1306
00:45:25,349 --> 00:45:22,960
racist tattoos

1307
00:45:28,230 --> 00:45:25,359
and he beat up more people of color and

1308
00:45:31,270 --> 00:45:28,240
so the behavior didn't necessarily match

1309
00:45:31,990 --> 00:45:31,280
the inner you know tumult that was going

1310
00:45:34,550 --> 00:45:32,000
on because he was

1311
00:45:35,750 --> 00:45:34,560
having these doubts and very afraid that

1312
00:45:38,390 --> 00:45:35,760
people would figure out

1313
00:45:39,990 --> 00:45:38,400
that he was doubting and so part of what

1314
00:45:41,270 --> 00:45:40,000
we have to be cognizant of

1315
00:45:43,349 --> 00:45:41,280
because we've talked about some of the

1316
00:45:44,470 --> 00:45:43,359
differences with terrorism we also have

1317
00:45:45,510 --> 00:45:44,480
to see that there might be some

1318
00:45:47,829 --> 00:45:45,520
similarities

1319
00:45:49,349 --> 00:45:47,839
and lessons that can be learned that

1320
00:45:51,589 --> 00:45:49,359
someone's behavior

1321
00:45:52,790 --> 00:45:51,599
vis-a-vis q and on and that they might

1322
00:45:55,349 --> 00:45:52,800
appear to be

1323
00:45:57,430 --> 00:45:55,359
boosting q anon to the end of the earth

1324
00:45:59,030 --> 00:45:57,440
they might also still be a doubter

1325
00:46:00,710 --> 00:45:59,040
so we need to provide some sort of

1326
00:46:03,750 --> 00:46:00,720
off-ramp some sort of

1327
00:46:05,750 --> 00:46:03,760
exit for them to leave but it's very

1328
00:46:08,790 --> 00:46:05,760
important that they feel they can do so

1329
00:46:10,710 --> 00:46:08,800
safely and they can do so in that

1330
00:46:12,390 --> 00:46:10,720
they're not walking away from the only

1331
00:46:14,470 --> 00:46:12,400
community that they currently

1332
00:46:17,349 --> 00:46:14,480
even have because everyone among their

1333
00:46:18,870 --> 00:46:17,359
family and friends has written them off

1334
00:46:21,750 --> 00:46:18,880
yeah and that's something i've certainly

1335
00:46:23,510 --> 00:46:21,760
noticed myself with people is that

1336
00:46:24,790 --> 00:46:23,520
they do intensify things sometimes

1337
00:46:27,910 --> 00:46:24,800
before

1338
00:46:29,190 --> 00:46:27,920
they they give it up they get these very

1339
00:46:32,790 --> 00:46:29,200
strong feelings of

1340
00:46:33,430 --> 00:46:32,800
of doubt uh cognitive dissonance uh when

1341
00:46:35,910 --> 00:46:33,440
you know they

1342
00:46:37,270 --> 00:46:35,920
they they uh they become unsettled and

1343
00:46:40,230 --> 00:46:37,280
unbalanced

1344
00:46:41,829 --> 00:46:40,240
and they seek out the behavior that has

1345
00:46:43,510 --> 00:46:41,839
helped them in the past which is going

1346
00:46:44,870 --> 00:46:43,520
watching things on youtube

1347
00:46:47,430 --> 00:46:44,880
and people are giving me this exact

1348
00:46:50,390 --> 00:46:47,440
description like they they saw something

1349
00:46:52,470 --> 00:46:50,400
being debunked and then they went off

1350
00:46:54,390 --> 00:46:52,480
and spent the entire night watching

1351
00:46:56,309 --> 00:46:54,400
other other videos until they felt like

1352
00:46:57,750 --> 00:46:56,319
it wasn't debunked again

1353
00:47:00,230 --> 00:46:57,760
and this is something that stephen

1354
00:47:00,950 --> 00:47:00,240
hassan uh talks about in his books a lot

1355
00:47:04,309 --> 00:47:00,960
is that

1356
00:47:05,910 --> 00:47:04,319
cults often engage in well

1357
00:47:07,510 --> 00:47:05,920
they teach people a thing called

1358
00:47:11,270 --> 00:47:07,520
thought-stopping

1359
00:47:12,950 --> 00:47:11,280
where you if you feel uh

1360
00:47:14,790 --> 00:47:12,960
the real world coming into your brain

1361
00:47:18,630 --> 00:47:14,800
you have to shut it out somehow by

1362
00:47:21,750 --> 00:47:18,640
by uh uh they do things like chanting

1363
00:47:23,670 --> 00:47:21,760
and the watching youtube videos i feel

1364
00:47:27,589 --> 00:47:23,680
is kind of the conspiracy theory

1365
00:47:30,390 --> 00:47:27,599
version of mindless chanting in in cults

1366
00:47:30,950 --> 00:47:30,400
uh which is a kind of a fascinating uh

1367
00:47:35,829 --> 00:47:30,960
uh

1368
00:47:37,109 --> 00:47:35,839
on in chapter four you have you know

1369
00:47:38,630 --> 00:47:37,119
you're the only thing you only have two

1370
00:47:39,270 --> 00:47:38,640
diagrams in the entire book and the

1371
00:47:41,349 --> 00:47:39,280
other one is

1372
00:47:42,710 --> 00:47:41,359
as as this one which i'll put a better

1373
00:47:46,150 --> 00:47:42,720
version up up

1374
00:47:49,670 --> 00:47:46,160
and it's showing like the the the four

1375
00:47:51,750 --> 00:47:49,680
uh areas you think can contribute to

1376
00:47:53,190 --> 00:47:51,760
uh to helping people with q anon and

1377
00:47:54,870 --> 00:47:53,200
helping that the problem in general

1378
00:47:56,950 --> 00:47:54,880
you've got building immunity limiting

1379
00:47:59,750 --> 00:47:56,960
exposure offering treatment

1380
00:48:01,190 --> 00:47:59,760
and adjusting expectations and you know

1381
00:48:04,069 --> 00:48:01,200
we're kind of talking about

1382
00:48:05,990 --> 00:48:04,079
um treatment to a degree there like

1383
00:48:07,349 --> 00:48:06,000
offering people treatment

1384
00:48:09,349 --> 00:48:07,359
and this is something that i've i've

1385
00:48:11,190 --> 00:48:09,359
kind of had like

1386
00:48:14,630 --> 00:48:11,200
just problems with phrasing things like

1387
00:48:17,670 --> 00:48:14,640
this because whenever i talk to people

1388
00:48:19,750 --> 00:48:17,680
the idea that they might be mentally ill

1389
00:48:21,190 --> 00:48:19,760
is something that people violently

1390
00:48:23,829 --> 00:48:21,200
oppose

1391
00:48:25,589 --> 00:48:23,839
and it's it's very difficult to get

1392
00:48:27,190 --> 00:48:25,599
someone into treatment if they they

1393
00:48:28,069 --> 00:48:27,200
believe that you know the world is lying

1394
00:48:31,030 --> 00:48:28,079
to them

1395
00:48:32,390 --> 00:48:31,040
so when you're offering treatment who

1396
00:48:33,190 --> 00:48:32,400
are you offering it to you you think

1397
00:48:36,549 --> 00:48:33,200
there's a

1398
00:48:38,470 --> 00:48:36,559
like a a segment of the that population

1399
00:48:41,510 --> 00:48:38,480
who is ready for the treatment

1400
00:48:44,710 --> 00:48:41,520
and will be more easily led into it

1401
00:48:47,430 --> 00:48:44,720
the q anon community is very diverse

1402
00:48:49,910 --> 00:48:47,440
a number of them have already had some

1403
00:48:53,109 --> 00:48:49,920
sort of a mental health diagnosis

1404
00:48:55,430 --> 00:48:53,119
and probably you know are familiar

1405
00:48:57,109 --> 00:48:55,440
with possibilities for treatment and

1406
00:49:00,790 --> 00:48:57,119
might be seeking them out

1407
00:49:01,990 --> 00:49:00,800
those doubters who are experiencing all

1408
00:49:04,950 --> 00:49:02,000
these difficult emotions

1409
00:49:06,790 --> 00:49:04,960
they might need treatment made available

1410
00:49:08,390 --> 00:49:06,800
to them which is right now

1411
00:49:10,309 --> 00:49:08,400
very difficult all of my colleagues who

1412
00:49:12,470 --> 00:49:10,319
are practicing clinical

1413
00:49:15,270 --> 00:49:12,480
psychology or psychotherapy are

1414
00:49:18,549 --> 00:49:15,280
overwhelmed with requests in the wake of

1415
00:49:20,630 --> 00:49:18,559
covet lockdowns a lot of people

1416
00:49:22,150 --> 00:49:20,640
develop psychological problems or you

1417
00:49:25,030 --> 00:49:22,160
know their old issues

1418
00:49:27,510 --> 00:49:25,040
came to the surface um so there's a real

1419
00:49:30,309 --> 00:49:27,520
shortage of care and a lot of people

1420
00:49:31,829 --> 00:49:30,319
um are not able to afford it maybe they

1421
00:49:32,950 --> 00:49:31,839
don't have health insurance maybe their

1422
00:49:36,150 --> 00:49:32,960
health insurance

1423
00:49:38,870 --> 00:49:36,160
doesn't cover psychotherapy so

1424
00:49:40,549 --> 00:49:38,880
whatever proportion of qn followers

1425
00:49:44,710 --> 00:49:40,559
would like

1426
00:49:46,630 --> 00:49:44,720
treatment and are aware of this need

1427
00:49:47,910 --> 00:49:46,640
i feel there has to be an honest

1428
00:49:50,630 --> 00:49:47,920
conversation

1429
00:49:52,390 --> 00:49:50,640
um in the government about how to make

1430
00:49:54,549 --> 00:49:52,400
that available to them

1431
00:49:55,829 --> 00:49:54,559
but if they're not interested in

1432
00:49:56,470 --> 00:49:55,839
treatment you're right there's

1433
00:49:58,470 --> 00:49:56,480
absolutely

1434
00:49:59,829 --> 00:49:58,480
nothing we can do for them the

1435
00:50:02,710 --> 00:49:59,839
alternative that

1436
00:50:03,510 --> 00:50:02,720
that we discuss in the book sidesteps

1437
00:50:06,710 --> 00:50:03,520
the

1438
00:50:09,349 --> 00:50:06,720
stigma around mental health illness

1439
00:50:10,950 --> 00:50:09,359
and treatment which you've encountered

1440
00:50:13,109 --> 00:50:10,960
in your conversations with you know

1441
00:50:15,990 --> 00:50:13,119
followers and that no doubt

1442
00:50:17,190 --> 00:50:16,000
really permeates you know our society at

1443
00:50:19,910 --> 00:50:17,200
present time

1444
00:50:20,470 --> 00:50:19,920
um and that is uh mindfulness based

1445
00:50:24,230 --> 00:50:20,480
stress

1446
00:50:27,109 --> 00:50:24,240
reduction it's a um

1447
00:50:28,710 --> 00:50:27,119
it's not a therapy it's a group based

1448
00:50:29,510 --> 00:50:28,720
treatment that usually lasts about eight

1449
00:50:32,549 --> 00:50:29,520
weeks

1450
00:50:35,750 --> 00:50:32,559
um you're not expected to

1451
00:50:36,630 --> 00:50:35,760
self-disclose at all uh so you don't

1452
00:50:38,549 --> 00:50:36,640
have to say

1453
00:50:40,630 --> 00:50:38,559
you know why you're there what your

1454
00:50:44,230 --> 00:50:40,640
thoughts or feelings are

1455
00:50:46,790 --> 00:50:44,240
instead what this program does is

1456
00:50:48,390 --> 00:50:46,800
it teaches people about physiology and

1457
00:50:51,109 --> 00:50:48,400
psychology of stress

1458
00:50:51,990 --> 00:50:51,119
that's one thing another thing is it

1459
00:50:56,309 --> 00:50:52,000
teaches

1460
00:50:59,750 --> 00:50:56,319
people how to practice meditation

1461
00:51:02,549 --> 00:50:59,760
uh and moment-to-moment awareness

1462
00:51:04,710 --> 00:51:02,559
and the third thing is it it kind of

1463
00:51:07,990 --> 00:51:04,720
gets them into the habit hopefully

1464
00:51:08,549 --> 00:51:08,000
of doing mindful movement and all of it

1465
00:51:10,230 --> 00:51:08,559
together

1466
00:51:12,630 --> 00:51:10,240
this is a really well established

1467
00:51:13,510 --> 00:51:12,640
program it's been shown to be extremely

1468
00:51:16,990 --> 00:51:13,520
effective

1469
00:51:20,069 --> 00:51:17,000
long term in treating all kinds of

1470
00:51:23,750 --> 00:51:20,079
psychopathologies including

1471
00:51:27,109 --> 00:51:23,760
anxiety and depression and ptsd

1472
00:51:29,910 --> 00:51:27,119
um it also is

1473
00:51:31,670 --> 00:51:29,920
a kind of community that you come to

1474
00:51:33,829 --> 00:51:31,680
face to face once a week

1475
00:51:34,950 --> 00:51:33,839
which is invaluable for a lot of people

1476
00:51:38,069 --> 00:51:34,960
who

1477
00:51:40,230 --> 00:51:38,079
had that community and queuing on and if

1478
00:51:42,069 --> 00:51:40,240
if they are to break away from it they

1479
00:51:45,030 --> 00:51:42,079
need an alternative

1480
00:51:45,670 --> 00:51:45,040
um so yeah treatment for those who are

1481
00:51:48,710 --> 00:51:45,680
are

1482
00:51:49,990 --> 00:51:48,720
interested in it sure but queuing on is

1483
00:51:53,430 --> 00:51:50,000
a really complex

1484
00:51:56,870 --> 00:51:53,440
problem 30 million people are not all

1485
00:51:57,430 --> 00:51:56,880
in it for one reason and so anything

1486
00:52:00,309 --> 00:51:57,440
that will

1487
00:52:01,750 --> 00:52:00,319
really counter the influence of kirino

1488
00:52:04,150 --> 00:52:01,760
is gonna have to be

1489
00:52:04,950 --> 00:52:04,160
similarly diverse so in addition to

1490
00:52:08,150 --> 00:52:04,960
treatment

1491
00:52:08,630 --> 00:52:08,160
right we really have to worry about and

1492
00:52:12,069 --> 00:52:08,640
work

1493
00:52:14,230 --> 00:52:12,079
toward limiting the influence of

1494
00:52:15,829 --> 00:52:14,240
individuals in groups who spread this

1495
00:52:17,990 --> 00:52:15,839
information online

1496
00:52:19,870 --> 00:52:18,000
and we've already seen after january 6th

1497
00:52:22,150 --> 00:52:19,880
when donald trump was

1498
00:52:23,030 --> 00:52:22,160
de-platformed the amount of

1499
00:52:25,510 --> 00:52:23,040
disinformation

1500
00:52:26,870 --> 00:52:25,520
circulating on social media has

1501
00:52:30,230 --> 00:52:26,880
decreased by something like

1502
00:52:32,710 --> 00:52:30,240
70 just one individual

1503
00:52:34,150 --> 00:52:32,720
was responsible for so much information

1504
00:52:36,390 --> 00:52:34,160
and what's more

1505
00:52:37,910 --> 00:52:36,400
people participants or what they call

1506
00:52:41,109 --> 00:52:37,920
them

1507
00:52:42,950 --> 00:52:41,119
users on facebook and and twitter were

1508
00:52:44,950 --> 00:52:42,960
less likely to engage

1509
00:52:47,349 --> 00:52:44,960
with this information content by

1510
00:52:50,150 --> 00:52:47,359
clicking on it or liking it or

1511
00:52:50,710 --> 00:52:50,160
retweeting it or spreading it further so

1512
00:52:54,309 --> 00:52:50,720
it is

1513
00:52:55,829 --> 00:52:54,319
of fundamental importance to decide to

1514
00:52:57,750 --> 00:52:55,839
have some sort of a discussion and

1515
00:52:59,750 --> 00:52:57,760
hopefully legislation

1516
00:53:01,349 --> 00:52:59,760
that would not make it a spur of the

1517
00:53:04,630 --> 00:53:01,359
moment decision on

1518
00:53:05,910 --> 00:53:04,640
on you know zuckerberg's uh um side you

1519
00:53:06,950 --> 00:53:05,920
know okay we're going to de-platform

1520
00:53:09,829 --> 00:53:06,960
this individual

1521
00:53:10,710 --> 00:53:09,839
but that would create some rules that we

1522
00:53:13,510 --> 00:53:10,720
could then

1523
00:53:13,990 --> 00:53:13,520
hold platforms responsible for for

1524
00:53:17,190 --> 00:53:14,000
enforcing

1525
00:53:18,870 --> 00:53:17,200
them right um the social media are just

1526
00:53:21,510 --> 00:53:18,880
crawling with these

1527
00:53:22,630 --> 00:53:21,520
trolls and bought some of them you know

1528
00:53:26,150 --> 00:53:22,640
foreign some of them

1529
00:53:26,870 --> 00:53:26,160
domestic whose entire existence on these

1530
00:53:30,150 --> 00:53:26,880
platforms

1531
00:53:31,589 --> 00:53:30,160
is designed to maximize presence and

1532
00:53:35,109 --> 00:53:31,599
influence of these things

1533
00:53:35,910 --> 00:53:35,119
we need some sort of a transparency

1534
00:53:38,069 --> 00:53:35,920
effort

1535
00:53:39,030 --> 00:53:38,079
on the part of the social media giants

1536
00:53:42,549 --> 00:53:39,040
that would allow

1537
00:53:43,670 --> 00:53:42,559
researchers to track these individuals

1538
00:53:46,710 --> 00:53:43,680
or programs

1539
00:53:50,710 --> 00:53:46,720
to identify them quickly to curb

1540
00:53:52,790 --> 00:53:50,720
their um influence right and

1541
00:53:54,069 --> 00:53:52,800
there's none of that happening in fact

1542
00:53:57,270 --> 00:53:54,079
just the other day

1543
00:53:58,390 --> 00:53:57,280
i saw that facebook blocked a group of

1544
00:54:01,750 --> 00:53:58,400
researchers

1545
00:54:04,630 --> 00:54:01,760
who were using their data from

1546
00:54:05,109 --> 00:54:04,640
assessing things like this so like

1547
00:54:07,910 --> 00:54:05,119
almost

1548
00:54:08,710 --> 00:54:07,920
as though they're sabotaging you know um

1549
00:54:10,549 --> 00:54:08,720
efforts to

1550
00:54:11,990 --> 00:54:10,559
curtail influence of disinformation

1551
00:54:14,870 --> 00:54:12,000
because let's face it

1552
00:54:15,990 --> 00:54:14,880
these really highly polarizing very

1553
00:54:18,069 --> 00:54:16,000
emotion lady

1554
00:54:19,510 --> 00:54:18,079
posts are the ones who are getting the

1555
00:54:22,470 --> 00:54:19,520
most user engagement

1556
00:54:23,430 --> 00:54:22,480
right so it's kind of against facebook's

1557
00:54:26,069 --> 00:54:23,440
interests

1558
00:54:27,910 --> 00:54:26,079
to have them curtailed so there are a

1559
00:54:29,030 --> 00:54:27,920
number of different directions that have

1560
00:54:32,470 --> 00:54:29,040
to be

1561
00:54:34,069 --> 00:54:32,480
addressed you know treatment um

1562
00:54:36,710 --> 00:54:34,079
social media transparency and

1563
00:54:39,910 --> 00:54:36,720
accountability we also need to work

1564
00:54:42,390 --> 00:54:39,920
on just social media literacy

1565
00:54:43,829 --> 00:54:42,400
among our public because you know

1566
00:54:46,309 --> 00:54:43,839
distrust in science

1567
00:54:47,510 --> 00:54:46,319
it's only part the fault of science

1568
00:54:50,069 --> 00:54:47,520
which at times

1569
00:54:50,710 --> 00:54:50,079
goes wrong like everything does the

1570
00:54:53,109 --> 00:54:50,720
other part

1571
00:54:55,589 --> 00:54:53,119
is that a lot of people of members of

1572
00:54:59,430 --> 00:54:55,599
our society are unable to tell

1573
00:55:01,109 --> 00:54:59,440
how to judge quality of information

1574
00:55:02,470 --> 00:55:01,119
they really don't understand why a

1575
00:55:05,349 --> 00:55:02,480
youtube video

1576
00:55:07,030 --> 00:55:05,359
is better or worse you know than a

1577
00:55:10,069 --> 00:55:07,040
peer-reviewed journal

1578
00:55:12,950 --> 00:55:10,079
so we need to to

1579
00:55:14,069 --> 00:55:12,960
really increase our efforts in educating

1580
00:55:16,309 --> 00:55:14,079
our children

1581
00:55:18,390 --> 00:55:16,319
and also our adults about how to

1582
00:55:21,430 --> 00:55:18,400
decipher information how to make better

1583
00:55:23,270 --> 00:55:21,440
choices as consumers of information

1584
00:55:24,789 --> 00:55:23,280
yeah uh we do there's a lot of things

1585
00:55:26,549 --> 00:55:24,799
that can be done and you lay out a lot

1586
00:55:27,270 --> 00:55:26,559
of these things here and i i really do

1587
00:55:30,470 --> 00:55:27,280
like the

1588
00:55:32,950 --> 00:55:30,480
idea that you have of uh kind of

1589
00:55:34,630 --> 00:55:32,960
giving people therapy without it being

1590
00:55:36,230 --> 00:55:34,640
called therapy and one of the other

1591
00:55:37,430 --> 00:55:36,240
things that you talk about is is

1592
00:55:39,430 --> 00:55:37,440
volunteering

1593
00:55:40,630 --> 00:55:39,440
uh encouraging people to volunteer which

1594
00:55:43,670 --> 00:55:40,640
i think is a very

1595
00:55:44,470 --> 00:55:43,680
uh good way of of people kind of

1596
00:55:48,150 --> 00:55:44,480
regaining

1597
00:55:50,069 --> 00:55:48,160
uh contact with reality and i i

1598
00:55:52,470 --> 00:55:50,079
think a lot of the problem that we have

1599
00:55:54,630 --> 00:55:52,480
is just simply people who

1600
00:55:56,150 --> 00:55:54,640
get into a a position where they're only

1601
00:55:56,549 --> 00:55:56,160
looking at things from one perspective

1602
00:55:58,549 --> 00:55:56,559
and they're

1603
00:55:59,750 --> 00:55:58,559
looking at one kind of set of limited

1604
00:56:03,190 --> 00:55:59,760
information sources

1605
00:56:05,910 --> 00:56:03,200
and anything that you can do that will

1606
00:56:07,750 --> 00:56:05,920
broaden their horizons is a good thing

1607
00:56:09,750 --> 00:56:07,760
so i think that the volunteering

1608
00:56:11,349 --> 00:56:09,760
is a great thing sophia actually in the

1609
00:56:13,349 --> 00:56:11,359
chapter that she

1610
00:56:15,109 --> 00:56:13,359
she wrote talks about getting away from

1611
00:56:15,670 --> 00:56:15,119
your screen and just going out for a

1612
00:56:18,470 --> 00:56:15,680
while

1613
00:56:19,270 --> 00:56:18,480
just being yeah so i i'm not i'm not in

1614
00:56:22,630 --> 00:56:19,280
outside

1615
00:56:26,630 --> 00:56:22,640
for no reason i wanted to emphasize that

1616
00:56:29,589 --> 00:56:26,640
being you know going back in time

1617
00:56:31,990 --> 00:56:29,599
before we could be contacted constantly

1618
00:56:35,109 --> 00:56:32,000
before we had every push notification

1619
00:56:38,549 --> 00:56:35,119
i mean we know from people like um

1620
00:56:41,670 --> 00:56:38,559
jen twenge that talks about the

1621
00:56:43,430 --> 00:56:41,680
uh the igen the extent to which we have

1622
00:56:45,750 --> 00:56:43,440
become somewhat addicted

1623
00:56:47,190 --> 00:56:45,760
to our devices and that this has

1624
00:56:50,150 --> 00:56:47,200
actually caused

1625
00:56:52,549 --> 00:56:50,160
more depression although we feel

1626
00:56:55,510 --> 00:56:52,559
connected we actually feel more isolated

1627
00:56:57,109 --> 00:56:55,520
in the long term and so part of it is

1628
00:56:58,549 --> 00:56:57,119
building new connections

1629
00:57:00,870 --> 00:56:58,559
and so that's where the volunteering

1630
00:57:03,109 --> 00:57:00,880
comes in because you're actually

1631
00:57:04,470 --> 00:57:03,119
you're able to express that altruistic

1632
00:57:06,069 --> 00:57:04,480
in tendency

1633
00:57:07,829 --> 00:57:06,079
that might have pulled you into q and on

1634
00:57:09,270 --> 00:57:07,839
to save the children but you're actually

1635
00:57:11,190 --> 00:57:09,280
going to be saving children

1636
00:57:13,670 --> 00:57:11,200
or helping the homeless or doing

1637
00:57:16,309 --> 00:57:13,680
something good and that will boost your

1638
00:57:17,910 --> 00:57:16,319
also it will actually allow those

1639
00:57:20,390 --> 00:57:17,920
dopamine receptors

1640
00:57:21,829 --> 00:57:20,400
to ping a little bit that make you feel

1641
00:57:24,470 --> 00:57:21,839
good about what you're doing

1642
00:57:25,990 --> 00:57:24,480
make you jump out of bed with a purpose

1643
00:57:28,390 --> 00:57:26,000
and so instead of having q and

1644
00:57:29,430 --> 00:57:28,400
on and being a keyboard warrior that

1645
00:57:31,430 --> 00:57:29,440
that's your purpose

1646
00:57:33,430 --> 00:57:31,440
now you have a purpose of helping people

1647
00:57:35,750 --> 00:57:33,440
in real life

1648
00:57:38,230 --> 00:57:35,760
yeah and that's a great thing and uh a

1649
00:57:39,589 --> 00:57:38,240
lot of times when people talk to me

1650
00:57:41,109 --> 00:57:39,599
they're not really the type of people

1651
00:57:42,630 --> 00:57:41,119
who are going to save the children they

1652
00:57:44,549 --> 00:57:42,640
are people who have become of obsessed

1653
00:57:46,630 --> 00:57:44,559
with some kind of conspiracy theory and

1654
00:57:48,710 --> 00:57:46,640
something i try to do is try to steer

1655
00:57:50,470 --> 00:57:48,720
them towards another obsession

1656
00:57:52,390 --> 00:57:50,480
uh because they're type of person is

1657
00:57:54,870 --> 00:57:52,400
going to get obsessed over something so

1658
00:57:57,430 --> 00:57:54,880
i you know i suggest things like even

1659
00:57:57,750 --> 00:57:57,440
like playing video games can be a better

1660
00:57:59,190 --> 00:57:57,760
thing

1661
00:58:00,789 --> 00:57:59,200
especially the online ones where you

1662
00:58:01,829 --> 00:58:00,799
have some kind of social interaction

1663
00:58:04,470 --> 00:58:01,839
with people

1664
00:58:05,270 --> 00:58:04,480
but i i suggest other hobbies one of the

1665
00:58:07,829 --> 00:58:05,280
ones i

1666
00:58:09,109 --> 00:58:07,839
frequently suggest is lock picking which

1667
00:58:10,309 --> 00:58:09,119
is a bit of an odd thing but it's

1668
00:58:11,910 --> 00:58:10,319
something i personally found to be

1669
00:58:13,190 --> 00:58:11,920
really interesting to do

1670
00:58:14,789 --> 00:58:13,200
and there is actually an online

1671
00:58:16,470 --> 00:58:14,799
community of people and then you can go

1672
00:58:18,470 --> 00:58:16,480
to lockpicking contests but if you can

1673
00:58:21,510 --> 00:58:18,480
if you can steer somebody towards

1674
00:58:23,270 --> 00:58:21,520
something other than this obsession

1675
00:58:24,950 --> 00:58:23,280
it doesn't really matter what it is i

1676
00:58:26,309 --> 00:58:24,960
think and that's why things like you

1677
00:58:27,589 --> 00:58:26,319
know those i think the suggestions that

1678
00:58:30,549 --> 00:58:27,599
you put forward

1679
00:58:32,230 --> 00:58:30,559
uh like the the mindfulness and the uh

1680
00:58:34,870 --> 00:58:32,240
volunteering and uh

1681
00:58:36,390 --> 00:58:34,880
you know just getting out into nature

1682
00:58:38,390 --> 00:58:36,400
are actually things that

1683
00:58:40,710 --> 00:58:38,400
will actually work you know i know that

1684
00:58:42,549 --> 00:58:40,720
they do actually work in practice

1685
00:58:43,990 --> 00:58:42,559
uh something i want to quite talk about

1686
00:58:45,750 --> 00:58:44,000
is kind of a

1687
00:58:47,349 --> 00:58:45,760
a fun thing which is not we're not

1688
00:58:50,950 --> 00:58:47,359
really fun but the the

1689
00:58:52,710 --> 00:58:50,960
the idea of elves uh this is something

1690
00:58:55,030 --> 00:58:52,720
that was suggested that

1691
00:58:56,470 --> 00:58:55,040
you know we have trolls and perhaps what

1692
00:58:59,430 --> 00:58:56,480
we need is elves

1693
00:58:59,840 --> 00:58:59,440
in social spaces online people are are

1694
00:59:01,349 --> 00:58:59,850
often

1695
00:59:02,710 --> 00:59:01,359
[Music]

1696
00:59:04,150 --> 00:59:02,720
they they're only getting one

1697
00:59:05,589 --> 00:59:04,160
perspective which essentially is the

1698
00:59:08,230 --> 00:59:05,599
troll perspective

1699
00:59:09,510 --> 00:59:08,240
and we need to get uh another

1700
00:59:10,789 --> 00:59:09,520
perspective in there and this is

1701
00:59:13,430 --> 00:59:10,799
something that was suggested

1702
00:59:15,270 --> 00:59:13,440
you know many years ago by cass sunstein

1703
00:59:17,990 --> 00:59:15,280
and adrian vermoul and they called it

1704
00:59:19,190 --> 00:59:18,000
cognitive infiltration which sounded a

1705
00:59:21,589 --> 00:59:19,200
lot scarier

1706
00:59:22,630 --> 00:59:21,599
than uh in the british thing it is elves

1707
00:59:25,349 --> 00:59:22,640
but can uh

1708
00:59:27,510 --> 00:59:25,359
can you talk about what this concept is

1709
00:59:29,109 --> 00:59:27,520
like the elves infiltrating these these

1710
00:59:31,750 --> 00:59:29,119
social spaces

1711
00:59:32,789 --> 00:59:31,760
yeah so we know from psychology research

1712
00:59:35,910 --> 00:59:32,799
that

1713
00:59:39,270 --> 00:59:35,920
a group tends to become of one mind

1714
00:59:41,510 --> 00:59:39,280
right we have a number of famous studies

1715
00:59:43,030 --> 00:59:41,520
where you know you you basically

1716
00:59:45,270 --> 00:59:43,040
instruct a bunch of

1717
00:59:46,470 --> 00:59:45,280
uh actors to agree to something

1718
00:59:48,390 --> 00:59:46,480
completely ridiculous

1719
00:59:49,910 --> 00:59:48,400
even calling something that's white

1720
00:59:52,789 --> 00:59:49,920
black and

1721
00:59:54,710 --> 00:59:52,799
and then you introduce a layperson an

1722
00:59:56,630 --> 00:59:54,720
actual participant into this group

1723
00:59:59,030 --> 00:59:56,640
and they watch person after person after

1724
01:00:02,950 --> 00:59:59,040
person say this ridiculous thing

1725
01:00:05,270 --> 01:00:02,960
and in the end most people most the time

1726
01:00:07,829 --> 01:00:05,280
will agree with the group on something

1727
01:00:11,030 --> 01:00:07,839
as ridiculous as white is black

1728
01:00:13,430 --> 01:00:11,040
so this kind of conformity in groups is

1729
01:00:14,549 --> 01:00:13,440
a real replicable phenomenon and of

1730
01:00:17,109 --> 01:00:14,559
course you know in

1731
01:00:17,990 --> 01:00:17,119
in these social forums social media

1732
01:00:20,309 --> 01:00:18,000
forums

1733
01:00:22,710 --> 01:00:20,319
that's often what happens somebody will

1734
01:00:25,030 --> 01:00:22,720
introduce the idea of space lasers

1735
01:00:26,390 --> 01:00:25,040
and a bunch of other individuals will

1736
01:00:30,069 --> 01:00:26,400
jump on board and

1737
01:00:33,030 --> 01:00:30,079
you know amplify this and repeat it and

1738
01:00:33,829 --> 01:00:33,040
a person looking at this exchange is

1739
01:00:36,549 --> 01:00:33,839
essentially

1740
01:00:37,349 --> 01:00:36,559
in the same experimental paradigm as

1741
01:00:39,589 --> 01:00:37,359
we've

1742
01:00:41,750 --> 01:00:39,599
demonstrated in social psychology where

1743
01:00:44,309 --> 01:00:41,760
they will end up conform

1744
01:00:45,190 --> 01:00:44,319
with the group's ridiculous opinion the

1745
01:00:47,030 --> 01:00:45,200
thing is though

1746
01:00:48,549 --> 01:00:47,040
a lot of these individuals are not

1747
01:00:50,549 --> 01:00:48,559
really individuals they're

1748
01:00:51,829 --> 01:00:50,559
either trolls who are paid or they

1749
01:00:53,430 --> 01:00:51,839
derive pleasure from

1750
01:00:55,510 --> 01:00:53,440
you know putting out ridiculous things

1751
01:00:57,910 --> 01:00:55,520
online and watching people's form

1752
01:00:58,870 --> 01:00:57,920
or their bots they're they're programs

1753
01:01:01,270 --> 01:00:58,880
created to

1754
01:01:02,069 --> 01:01:01,280
amplify certain kinds of messaging and

1755
01:01:05,750 --> 01:01:02,079
so it's

1756
01:01:08,230 --> 01:01:05,760
an illusion a lot of time um so

1757
01:01:08,789 --> 01:01:08,240
in that kind of experimental paradigm

1758
01:01:10,789 --> 01:01:08,799
there is an

1759
01:01:12,150 --> 01:01:10,799
antidote that we've discovered against

1760
01:01:14,470 --> 01:01:12,160
conformity

1761
01:01:15,510 --> 01:01:14,480
what happens is if you introduce even

1762
01:01:17,990 --> 01:01:15,520
one actor

1763
01:01:19,109 --> 01:01:18,000
into this group of you know ridiculous

1764
01:01:22,470 --> 01:01:19,119
spewing

1765
01:01:24,470 --> 01:01:22,480
um actors who says

1766
01:01:26,390 --> 01:01:24,480
the opposite of what they're saying even

1767
01:01:28,150 --> 01:01:26,400
if that opposite is

1768
01:01:29,589 --> 01:01:28,160
just as ridiculous let's say they're

1769
01:01:32,230 --> 01:01:29,599
calling white

1770
01:01:32,789 --> 01:01:32,240
red now right so everybody's saying you

1771
01:01:34,870 --> 01:01:32,799
know

1772
01:01:37,510 --> 01:01:34,880
it's black it's black it's black and

1773
01:01:39,589 --> 01:01:37,520
then you have somebody saying it's red

1774
01:01:41,270 --> 01:01:39,599
when it comes to the actual participant

1775
01:01:43,910 --> 01:01:41,280
they're a lot more likely now

1776
01:01:45,670 --> 01:01:43,920
to call out the truth and say no it's

1777
01:01:48,789 --> 01:01:45,680
actually not black or red it's

1778
01:01:49,589 --> 01:01:48,799
white so when people understand or

1779
01:01:52,470 --> 01:01:49,599
experience

1780
01:01:53,430 --> 01:01:52,480
the fact that there's no monolith of

1781
01:01:56,789 --> 01:01:53,440
opinion

1782
01:01:57,190 --> 01:01:56,799
they're a lot more able to defend their

1783
01:02:02,789 --> 01:01:57,200
own

1784
01:02:04,150 --> 01:02:02,799
and stand their ground and so in online

1785
01:02:06,630 --> 01:02:04,160
media you know we have these

1786
01:02:08,230 --> 01:02:06,640
malicious efforts behind trolls and bots

1787
01:02:09,910 --> 01:02:08,240
we also have psychopaths

1788
01:02:11,430 --> 01:02:09,920
unfortunately you know in our midst who

1789
01:02:13,750 --> 01:02:11,440
are doing it for fun

1790
01:02:14,710 --> 01:02:13,760
and so the idea in the book was that

1791
01:02:17,430 --> 01:02:14,720
perhaps

1792
01:02:19,190 --> 01:02:17,440
we can think about how would it be to

1793
01:02:22,230 --> 01:02:19,200
have elves to counteract

1794
01:02:24,950 --> 01:02:22,240
this negative influence online and else

1795
01:02:26,309 --> 01:02:24,960
you know can be anybody it could be bots

1796
01:02:28,390 --> 01:02:26,319
as well it can be programs that are

1797
01:02:30,230 --> 01:02:28,400
designed to counteract this information

1798
01:02:31,430 --> 01:02:30,240
it could be trolls sitting on the one

1799
01:02:33,270 --> 01:02:31,440
side and then the

1800
01:02:35,109 --> 01:02:33,280
experimenter sitting on the other and

1801
01:02:37,589 --> 01:02:35,119
just addressing disinformation

1802
01:02:39,670 --> 01:02:37,599
in real time but it also could be

1803
01:02:42,390 --> 01:02:39,680
volunteers so people who came out

1804
01:02:43,349 --> 01:02:42,400
of these radical conspiracy theory

1805
01:02:46,630 --> 01:02:43,359
groups

1806
01:02:48,710 --> 01:02:46,640
and are seeking out an outlet to counter

1807
01:02:51,029 --> 01:02:48,720
the kind of disinformation that took

1808
01:02:53,349 --> 01:02:51,039
them down the rabbit hole and

1809
01:02:55,829 --> 01:02:53,359
you know messed with their lives and and

1810
01:02:58,950 --> 01:02:55,839
and their friendships and their families

1811
01:02:59,990 --> 01:02:58,960
um this could be a fruitful avenue for

1812
01:03:02,549 --> 01:03:00,000
them to pursue

1813
01:03:05,109 --> 01:03:02,559
where they could really you know having

1814
01:03:07,589 --> 01:03:05,119
first-hand experience with this stuff

1815
01:03:08,789 --> 01:03:07,599
who better than they to address it in

1816
01:03:10,549 --> 01:03:08,799
that way

1817
01:03:11,829 --> 01:03:10,559
yeah and that's something i i really

1818
01:03:15,270 --> 01:03:11,839
like that approach

1819
01:03:15,990 --> 01:03:15,280
uh of of having a a dissenting voice

1820
01:03:18,470 --> 01:03:16,000
essentially

1821
01:03:19,029 --> 01:03:18,480
in in these these these walled gardens

1822
01:03:20,470 --> 01:03:19,039
that people

1823
01:03:23,190 --> 01:03:20,480
find themselves in and it's something

1824
01:03:25,270 --> 01:03:23,200
that i've had experience with myself

1825
01:03:27,910 --> 01:03:25,280
uh and that i've been that dissenting

1826
01:03:28,789 --> 01:03:27,920
voice and i know i do try to join these

1827
01:03:31,510 --> 01:03:28,799
online

1828
01:03:33,270 --> 01:03:31,520
uh groups and some of them were you know

1829
01:03:34,870 --> 01:03:33,280
will reject you but you know if you get

1830
01:03:37,190 --> 01:03:34,880
people who are actually open to

1831
01:03:38,549 --> 01:03:37,200
to some discussion you can introduce

1832
01:03:40,549 --> 01:03:38,559
ideas

1833
01:03:42,950 --> 01:03:40,559
and the thing i found is that it takes a

1834
01:03:44,789 --> 01:03:42,960
very long time for it to have any effect

1835
01:03:46,309 --> 01:03:44,799
uh which is kind of a general point i

1836
01:03:47,670 --> 01:03:46,319
guess with with conspiracy theory it

1837
01:03:49,029 --> 01:03:47,680
says that people do not change

1838
01:03:51,349 --> 01:03:49,039
immediately

1839
01:03:52,630 --> 01:03:51,359
but i i think it's one of these things

1840
01:03:54,710 --> 01:03:52,640
where

1841
01:03:56,710 --> 01:03:54,720
you're having an effect like a bit at a

1842
01:03:59,510 --> 01:03:56,720
time and you're gradually kind of

1843
01:04:01,029 --> 01:03:59,520
pushing back you know pushing back uh

1844
01:04:03,670 --> 01:04:01,039
something

1845
01:04:04,390 --> 01:04:03,680
until it does actually have a noticeable

1846
01:04:07,510 --> 01:04:04,400
effect

1847
01:04:10,950 --> 01:04:07,520
uh and i think the idea of having

1848
01:04:11,990 --> 01:04:10,960
uh people put in that situation like

1849
01:04:15,829 --> 01:04:12,000
volunteers or

1850
01:04:18,309 --> 01:04:15,839
or whoever even bots even bots

1851
01:04:20,150 --> 01:04:18,319
will actually have an effect and it

1852
01:04:22,950 --> 01:04:20,160
would be great to see that that

1853
01:04:23,670 --> 01:04:22,960
working more in the future we we have

1854
01:04:26,549 --> 01:04:23,680
colleagues

1855
01:04:28,789 --> 01:04:26,559
um that we've been friends with uh vidya

1856
01:04:30,309 --> 01:04:28,799
ramalingam and ross fournette for years

1857
01:04:32,069 --> 01:04:30,319
that they have an organization called

1858
01:04:35,270 --> 01:04:32,079
moonshot cv so

1859
01:04:37,589 --> 01:04:35,280
countering extremism and they have this

1860
01:04:39,109 --> 01:04:37,599
technique they and what they do is it's

1861
01:04:40,710 --> 01:04:39,119
called redirection

1862
01:04:42,950 --> 01:04:40,720
and it's sort of they're working with

1863
01:04:43,829 --> 01:04:42,960
google so let's say someone googles how

1864
01:04:45,829 --> 01:04:43,839
do i kill a

1865
01:04:47,990 --> 01:04:45,839
you know insert name of group and

1866
01:04:50,309 --> 01:04:48,000
instead of getting for the algorithm

1867
01:04:51,109 --> 01:04:50,319
to give you how to kill the person it

1868
01:04:54,630 --> 01:04:51,119
suggests

1869
01:04:57,109 --> 01:04:54,640
something else and so this redirection

1870
01:04:58,069 --> 01:04:57,119
it fits very nicely with sofia's

1871
01:05:00,150 --> 01:04:58,079
suggestion about

1872
01:05:01,829 --> 01:05:00,160
elves because what it is is it's

1873
01:05:04,309 --> 01:05:01,839
redirecting your efforts

1874
01:05:05,910 --> 01:05:04,319
and your enthusiasm because many of the

1875
01:05:08,309 --> 01:05:05,920
people who believe in q anon

1876
01:05:10,470 --> 01:05:08,319
believe it with a passion but let's use

1877
01:05:13,670 --> 01:05:10,480
that passion and let's use it for good

1878
01:05:15,029 --> 01:05:13,680
and so you know in part because within

1879
01:05:16,630 --> 01:05:15,039
the terrorism community

1880
01:05:18,390 --> 01:05:16,640
it's a small group we all know each

1881
01:05:18,950 --> 01:05:18,400
other we all have each other on speed

1882
01:05:21,750 --> 01:05:18,960
dial

1883
01:05:23,510 --> 01:05:21,760
we read each other's work and you know

1884
01:05:26,309 --> 01:05:23,520
it's a really good idea

1885
01:05:27,029 --> 01:05:26,319
to be able to take someone's sort of

1886
01:05:29,829 --> 01:05:27,039
passion

1887
01:05:31,029 --> 01:05:29,839
but for good instead of for evil yeah

1888
01:05:33,190 --> 01:05:31,039
definitely

1889
01:05:34,870 --> 01:05:33,200
uh well i think we've kind of gone over

1890
01:05:36,549 --> 01:05:34,880
like a lot of the things in the book and

1891
01:05:39,750 --> 01:05:36,559
you've been talking for about an hour

1892
01:05:41,190 --> 01:05:39,760
uh so let do you have any um

1893
01:05:42,950 --> 01:05:41,200
kind of final thoughts that you want to

1894
01:05:45,430 --> 01:05:42,960
kind of wrap up this this with

1895
01:05:46,470 --> 01:05:45,440
uh maybe start with uh sophia well i

1896
01:05:48,950 --> 01:05:46,480
want to emphasize

1897
01:05:49,990 --> 01:05:48,960
what i um mentioned at the beginning

1898
01:05:53,270 --> 01:05:50,000
that q anon

1899
01:05:54,470 --> 01:05:53,280
is a very different kind of radical

1900
01:05:58,470 --> 01:05:54,480
movement

1901
01:06:00,710 --> 01:05:58,480
than we're used to and that we cannot

1902
01:06:01,750 --> 01:06:00,720
address it effectively without

1903
01:06:04,789 --> 01:06:01,760
developing

1904
01:06:08,549 --> 01:06:04,799
new treatments

1905
01:06:11,910 --> 01:06:08,559
new initiatives um and

1906
01:06:15,510 --> 01:06:11,920
as a psychologist uh one major direction

1907
01:06:16,150 --> 01:06:15,520
that i see that is necessary to pursue

1908
01:06:20,789 --> 01:06:16,160
in

1909
01:06:24,150 --> 01:06:20,799
health

1910
01:06:26,710 --> 01:06:24,160
and to offer opportunities for treatment

1911
01:06:28,630 --> 01:06:26,720
and to offer a variety of treatment that

1912
01:06:29,670 --> 01:06:28,640
would speak to a variety of different

1913
01:06:31,589 --> 01:06:29,680
people so

1914
01:06:33,750 --> 01:06:31,599
you know some somebody would be feeling

1915
01:06:36,069 --> 01:06:33,760
stigma then mbsr

1916
01:06:37,750 --> 01:06:36,079
is maybe a better possibility for them

1917
01:06:38,549 --> 01:06:37,760
than somebody who is happy with

1918
01:06:42,309 --> 01:06:38,559
traditional

1919
01:06:44,230 --> 01:06:42,319
psychotherapy um offering assessments

1920
01:06:46,870 --> 01:06:44,240
some schools are already doing that

1921
01:06:48,230 --> 01:06:46,880
but i think in general we all came out

1922
01:06:51,029 --> 01:06:48,240
of these lockdowns

1923
01:06:53,270 --> 01:06:51,039
not quite as well off as we were before

1924
01:06:55,589 --> 01:06:53,280
and we're seeing that across the board

1925
01:06:56,549 --> 01:06:55,599
um so you know something more

1926
01:06:59,510 --> 01:06:56,559
centralized

1927
01:06:59,990 --> 01:06:59,520
to gauge where we are and what we need

1928
01:07:02,870 --> 01:07:00,000
to be

1929
01:07:04,309 --> 01:07:02,880
better as far as mental health is a

1930
01:07:07,829 --> 01:07:04,319
really important

1931
01:07:11,750 --> 01:07:07,839
factor in this mia i wanted to add

1932
01:07:14,150 --> 01:07:11,760
that you know what we're seeing now is

1933
01:07:15,670 --> 01:07:14,160
very dangerous from the perspective of

1934
01:07:18,390 --> 01:07:15,680
it's gonna be very hard

1935
01:07:20,309 --> 01:07:18,400
to leave cuenon aside if one of the

1936
01:07:23,270 --> 01:07:20,319
major two political parties

1937
01:07:25,109 --> 01:07:23,280
is embracing it and we saw in the summer

1938
01:07:25,829 --> 01:07:25,119
of 2020 we talked about in the book we

1939
01:07:27,829 --> 01:07:25,839
had a

1940
01:07:29,190 --> 01:07:27,839
map where you could see which states

1941
01:07:32,230 --> 01:07:29,200
were most impacted

1942
01:07:33,510 --> 01:07:32,240
but we had 97 q on candidates going into

1943
01:07:37,349 --> 01:07:33,520
the primaries

1944
01:07:39,349 --> 01:07:37,359
of which 24 were successful um 22 were

1945
01:07:41,109 --> 01:07:39,359
republican two were independent

1946
01:07:43,589 --> 01:07:41,119
and two were successful so we have

1947
01:07:45,829 --> 01:07:43,599
lauren bobert marjorie taylor green

1948
01:07:47,829 --> 01:07:45,839
and we're a year before the next

1949
01:07:49,990 --> 01:07:47,839
election and we already have

1950
01:07:51,430 --> 01:07:50,000
20 q anon candidates which means that

1951
01:07:54,870 --> 01:07:51,440
we're going to see a lot more

1952
01:07:57,750 --> 01:07:54,880
but we're also seeing this very clever

1953
01:07:59,910 --> 01:07:57,760
approach to take over school boards to

1954
01:08:02,230 --> 01:07:59,920
make sure what the children are taught

1955
01:08:03,670 --> 01:08:02,240
either these q anon women are going to

1956
01:08:05,670 --> 01:08:03,680
homeschool their kids

1957
01:08:07,750 --> 01:08:05,680
or these kids are going to go to school

1958
01:08:09,910 --> 01:08:07,760
at the age of seven or eight

1959
01:08:11,829 --> 01:08:09,920
believing that there is a global cabal

1960
01:08:15,510 --> 01:08:11,839
so we're going to also need

1961
01:08:18,149 --> 01:08:15,520
to provide teachers with the ballast

1962
01:08:20,149 --> 01:08:18,159
to be able to confront what is going to

1963
01:08:22,550 --> 01:08:20,159
be acute generation

1964
01:08:24,309 --> 01:08:22,560
the most important thing we can do is we

1965
01:08:25,269 --> 01:08:24,319
need to separate the republican party

1966
01:08:27,910 --> 01:08:25,279
from q anon

1967
01:08:28,709 --> 01:08:27,920
we need to at least demonstrate to the

1968
01:08:30,789 --> 01:08:28,719
leadership

1969
01:08:31,749 --> 01:08:30,799
that initially was very difficult when

1970
01:08:34,229 --> 01:08:31,759
you look at

1971
01:08:36,470 --> 01:08:34,239
what kevin mccarthy and steven scalise

1972
01:08:39,269 --> 01:08:36,480
were saying about marjorie taylor greene

1973
01:08:41,349 --> 01:08:39,279
before she won her primary scalise

1974
01:08:44,070 --> 01:08:41,359
donated the maximum amount

1975
01:08:45,829 --> 01:08:44,080
to her opponent and and kevin mccarthy

1976
01:08:47,430 --> 01:08:45,839
called her looney tunes

1977
01:08:49,590 --> 01:08:47,440
and then all of a sudden when she wins

1978
01:08:50,950 --> 01:08:49,600
the primary she's now the doll

1979
01:08:53,189 --> 01:08:50,960
of the republican party because she's

1980
01:08:55,510 --> 01:08:53,199
raising money and so

1981
01:08:57,269 --> 01:08:55,520
we really do need to keep emphasizing

1982
01:08:59,269 --> 01:08:57,279
country before party

1983
01:09:01,669 --> 01:08:59,279
we need to get the republican party back

1984
01:09:03,669 --> 01:09:01,679
on track but we also we're probably

1985
01:09:07,590 --> 01:09:03,679
going to have to do it one more time

1986
01:09:08,630 --> 01:09:07,600
in 2022 and and get out the vote the way

1987
01:09:12,229 --> 01:09:08,640
people did

1988
01:09:12,630 --> 01:09:12,239
in 2020 because otherwise we're going to

1989
01:09:16,229 --> 01:09:12,640
have

1990
01:09:18,550 --> 01:09:16,239
a q anon um portion of congress

1991
01:09:20,070 --> 01:09:18,560
the way we had a tea party and they are

1992
01:09:23,189 --> 01:09:20,080
going to be able to

1993
01:09:23,669 --> 01:09:23,199
have a spoiler effect on any kind of

1994
01:09:26,309 --> 01:09:23,679
bill

1995
01:09:27,110 --> 01:09:26,319
or law in the future we do really have

1996
01:09:30,390 --> 01:09:27,120
to take it

1997
01:09:32,309 --> 01:09:30,400
seriously not like isis seriously but we

1998
01:09:34,709 --> 01:09:32,319
have to take it seriously because

1999
01:09:35,829 --> 01:09:34,719
it has such a corrosive effect on our

2000
01:09:38,870 --> 01:09:35,839
democracy

2001
01:09:41,189 --> 01:09:38,880
that in the long term this is a peril

2002
01:09:43,749 --> 01:09:41,199
that is far more dangerous than the red

2003
01:09:44,870 --> 01:09:43,759
peril was in the 50s

2004
01:09:46,470 --> 01:09:44,880
yeah that's great and that's something

2005
01:09:48,070 --> 01:09:46,480
that really resonated me with me when i

2006
01:09:50,870 --> 01:09:48,080
saw it in the book you mentioned your

2007
01:09:52,870 --> 01:09:50,880
uh q anon is not going away until it is

2008
01:09:53,430 --> 01:09:52,880
rejected by the republican party which i

2009
01:09:55,669 --> 01:09:53,440
think is

2010
01:09:56,870 --> 01:09:55,679
is very true it has this kind of tacit

2011
01:10:00,550 --> 01:09:56,880
acceptance

2012
01:10:02,310 --> 01:10:00,560
uh that is is allowing it to grow and

2013
01:10:05,350 --> 01:10:02,320
lets a lot of people get into it so

2014
01:10:07,110 --> 01:10:05,360
that's definitely a very important thing

2015
01:10:08,149 --> 01:10:07,120
well i want to thank you very much uh

2016
01:10:10,070 --> 01:10:08,159
for this discussion it's been

2017
01:10:12,229 --> 01:10:10,080
fascinating uh the book is pastels and

2018
01:10:15,430 --> 01:10:12,239
pedophiles inside the mind of q and on

2019
01:10:19,030 --> 01:10:15,440
by mia bloom and sophia moscalenko

2020
01:10:21,510 --> 01:10:19,040
and do you have social media that people

2021
01:10:24,950 --> 01:10:21,520
can follow you on like twitter

2022
01:10:26,390 --> 01:10:24,960
i'm at mia m bloom so all one word with

2023
01:10:30,550 --> 01:10:26,400
my middle initial

2024
01:10:31,669 --> 01:10:30,560
and uh i i i'm on twitter i try to be on

2025
01:10:35,270 --> 01:10:31,679
twitter a little less

2026
01:10:37,110 --> 01:10:35,280
but i am available also and if any of

2027
01:10:39,110 --> 01:10:37,120
the listeners have a question

2028
01:10:41,510 --> 01:10:39,120
you can contact me at the university i

2029
01:10:43,669 --> 01:10:41,520
answer every question that's posed

2030
01:10:45,510 --> 01:10:43,679
that's great thank you yeah i'm also on

2031
01:10:47,030 --> 01:10:45,520
twitter i forget my handle but if you

2032
01:10:49,350 --> 01:10:47,040
search my name they're not so many

2033
01:10:53,030 --> 01:10:49,360
people with my last names so

2034
01:10:55,990 --> 01:10:53,040
i think it's s mascalenco1 there you go

2035
01:10:56,470 --> 01:10:56,000
okay all right well thank you very much

2036
01:10:59,510 --> 01:10:56,480
again

2037
01:11:01,270 --> 01:10:59,520
and you uh uh i look forward to seeing

2038
01:11:02,709 --> 01:11:01,280
your your future books uh because you

2039
01:11:03,350 --> 01:11:02,719
know this one was very good and you

2040
01:11:05,270 --> 01:11:03,360
obviously have

2041
01:11:07,750 --> 01:11:05,280
a bunch of good books already and uh

2042
01:11:09,750 --> 01:11:07,760
good luck with your work in the future

2043
01:11:11,510 --> 01:11:09,760
thank you mr west and as i mentioned you

2044
01:11:13,750 --> 01:11:11,520
know i wasn't just flattering you

2045
01:11:15,830 --> 01:11:13,760
i really what had happened was i had

2046
01:11:17,030 --> 01:11:15,840
been both sophie and i were briefing

2047
01:11:19,510 --> 01:11:17,040
fort bragg

2048
01:11:20,950 --> 01:11:19,520
and it was the soldiers that brought me

2049
01:11:22,950 --> 01:11:20,960
a copy of your book

2050
01:11:23,990 --> 01:11:22,960
and they said have you read this and i

2051
01:11:25,910 --> 01:11:24,000
said i haven't

2052
01:11:27,669 --> 01:11:25,920
and so then i downloaded all of your

2053
01:11:31,270 --> 01:11:27,679
podcasts and i read your book

2054
01:11:33,990 --> 01:11:31,280
so you have a massive following among

2055
01:11:36,229 --> 01:11:34,000
the elite soldiers at fort bragg who

2056
01:11:37,830 --> 01:11:36,239
said you have to read this

2057
01:11:39,750 --> 01:11:37,840
so thank you can't complain well thank

2058
01:11:40,630 --> 01:11:39,760
you thank you very much all right guys